The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

I am currently working on some ELR loads for the Swede using turned projectiles. Early tests have proved successful and it is performing consistently to over 1700yds with both H4831 and N560
Projectiles are custom made by Extreme Performance Ammunition and have outperformed the Berger 140s which I had been developing a load with.

BamBam wrote:I would find out if the importers will be bringing in supplies of 6.5CM to go with the RPR and then try to get a cost of this ammo beforehand.

Edgars Brothers already have plenty of 6.5 Creedmoor as they sell the Barrett and Savage in that calibre.

I too wonder why we have to re invent the whee, as saddler says the 5.5 x 55 Swedish is a good round. Can someone give good accurate reasons it should not be considered? Or are we just going through another 'Fashion' cycle akin to imported lager or bottled water.

Robert303 wrote:I too wonder why we have to re invent the wheel, as saddler says the 5.5 x 55 Swedish is a good round. Can someone give good accurate reasons it should not be considered? Or are we just going through another 'Fashion' cycle akin to imported lager or bottled water.

Well, if WE already have a perfectly good 6.5, then WHY would we need a replacement?
(Unless the BUSINESS of the makers/importers was to SELL MORE of their current NEW products - i.e. "Let's make a New Improved Mouse Trap" - a la re-inventing the wheel: bunga bunga to the "impartial gun press" - who have vested interests in not wanting to lose advertising revenue from the very same makers/importers - then wait for the rush of orders)

Look what happened to the supply of black powder 100 years or so back. The big firms all got together & decided to stop selling it, as it was still in such widespread use in most parts of the USA that hunters & the like were not adopting the more modern cartridge arms. No more black powder = sales of guns that took readily available FACTORY ammunition. The big firms have changed little in the time since...Monopoly anyone?

SOME ideas ARE good - like getting 6.5x55 performance, but from a shorter action platform, such as the .260 Rem - but for sporting/club shooters any weight savings tend to be academic, as similar changes within military calibers to save weight don't really apply - nor even do they in the military, as the load carried tends to offset the theoretical weight gain: the rounds weigh less, so carry more!

Caliber re-invention aside - the new rifle DOES seem to offer quite a few cost savings & advantages over the more traditional route of "buy bolt gun X - then strip it down & rebuild to suit your personal preferences".

As to the ammo importers - GOD KNOWS what the RRP will be! Their Remington ammo RRP was getting way out of control prior to them losing that franchise.

Some easily accomplished and not at all time consuming online research explains how the 6.5 Hornady Creedmoor came into being. David Emary, Hornady's development engineer and the driving force behind several new cartridges in recent years had dinner with Denis DeMille, general manager of Creedmoor Sports and a former US National Hi-Power champion exactly 8 years ago at the US Hi-Power Nationals at Camp Perry. Over the meal they had one of those What would your ideal cartridge for ............ look like, in this case for the Hi-Power XTC (Across the Course) three-stage service rifle discipline shot at 200 (standing), 300 (sitting or kneeling) and 600 yards (prone), a demanding mix not just for its 3 positions but the very short time allowances and compulsory magazine changes in the 200/300 rapid fire stages.

Creedmoor Sports is a major supplier of kit for US target shooters and also markets complete rifles for the Hi-Power game, both NRA Service Rifle which must be M1, M1A/M14 or AR-15/M16 based or the higher spec 'Match Rifle' division which sees both semi-auto and bolt action 'race guns' and for which G David Tubb developed the Tubb 2000 and 6XC cartridge. It was this category that Messrs Emary and DeMille discussed on that August evening in 2007.

They came to a concensus that the cartridge should be 6.5mm with similar ballistics to the .260 Rem but with a shorter case and longer neck to better handle the 139-142gn groups of match bullets, these seated very deep inside the case in the 260 at short-action COALs. The latter was also on the wishlist as the rifles built around the cartridge would have a short and slick bolt-throw for the rapid fire stages and must be able to accept the magazines that most HP competitors regard as de rigeur, especially the AI. Finally, it would ideally be available as an affordable factory number in match bullet loadings and with full-pressure loadings.

David Emary went back to Nebraska after the Nationals and talked to Hornady's marketing and production people and the more they looked at the concept the more they liked it and believed it would sell well - and it has to the point where Hornady has struggled to meet demand. It was initially offered in 120 and 140gn AMAX loads and the components / load were (and still are) printed on the carton - Fed210M primer, H4350. The 120gn load was soon found to be too warm and brass suffered so was reduced bya round 2.5gn. Hornady also developed its 123gn AMAX to improve the CM's ballistics further and this has been a great success too such as it's on continuous back-order here and supplies sell out as soon as received from the US. Hornady also worked very closely with Dave Kiff of PT&G re the chamber form and throating and the resulting chamber design was matched very closely to the brass dimensions and throating suits 120/123/140gn bullets. It was also adopted as the standard factory chamber by the large manufacturers who quickly picked up on the cartridge.

It goes from strength to strength in the US although so far has received little attention here or in Europe. It quickly became a deerstalkers' favourite too in the USA so Hornady introduced expanding bullet loads. Norma and Winchester have adopted the cartridge too for their ranges and it's only a matter of time before everybody does so although Remington will maybe hold back as it'll affect its 260 sales and Lapua likewise as it is a direct competitor to the 6.5X47 Lapua. Although developed for Hi-Power, it has seen its highest exposure in tactical / sniper comps including the Precision Rifle Series matches where it has largely supplanted 260 Rem, 260AI and to a fair extent 6.5X47L which had in their turn completely driven 308 Win out of contention earlier. American F-Class competitors have picked it up in a big way and it's now a favourite for short / mid-range matches.

Performance / ballistics wise there's little between it and 260 Rem and 6.5X47L although the Creedmoor is better suited to 140s within a 2.800" COAL than the 260R. Factory loadings for the 260 are overwhelmingly expanding bullet for medium game with no HPBT match loadings and precious few FMJ loads.

6.5X55mm? Long action needed which militates against a cartridge's success in this role especially in the US, and it is bedevilled by US ammunition manufacturers' fears about providing modern loads that might be fired in an 1890s Krag in poor condition so the only full pressure factory loadings are from Norma and Lapua and even they are for the modern 6.5X55 SKAN which is limited to 55,000 psi MAP under its CIP registration compated to 60,191 psi for 260, 63,091 psi for the Creedmoor and '47 Lapua.

BamBam wrote:I would find out if the importers will be bringing in supplies of 6.5CM to go with the RPR and then try to get a cost of this ammo beforehand.

In the US the 6.5CM factory match (140gr) ammo is cost comparable to the .308 match in 175gr. There will be no cheap bulk ammo from the likes of GGG in 6.5CM.

If you're only concerned with the long range performance, then a RPR in 6.5CM would seem to be the choice, but if you're a frequent club shooter at medium ranges then the .308 would still be the more cost effective solution using off the shelf ammo. Bear in mind the RPR in .308 has a 20" barrel, the 6.5 has a 24".

Going down the same road in deciding calibre choice for a RPR, looking at options and the typical distances I shoot and that I have an open .308 slot... Leaning towards .308, as much as the ballistics of the 6.5CM appeal, I'd want to start shooting with factory ammo and then develop my own load from that baseline with the once fired brass.

They are also offering .243 Win with a 26" barrel and my local gun shop has plenty of .243 factory ammo. Ideally, I would like to shoot to 1000 yards (possibly beyond) and was wondering if the .243 would be a good alternative to the 6.5 CM?

With factory ammo, the answer is a simple 'no'. The bullets used in 243 sporting ammo are relatively low BC - they don't need high BCs as they're designed to deal with medium game up to around 250 yards and no further. When I had an ex-police Parker-Hale M87 in 243 some years back, testing it on ranges showed it would perform reasonably well at 600 yards with Sako 90gn FMJBT ammunition, but the absolute accuracy limit for Winchester 100gn Super-X PSP was 500 yards, and it wasn't too great at that. Ask your dealer who has lots of 243 if any uses non-expanding bullets.

There are also legal issues - hardly any factory 243 Win is loaded with non-expanding bullets and you need a 'good reason' to have ammunition with expanding bullets, ie deerstalking and similar. Competition use is not regarded as a 'good reason' to either have permission to buy and own such ammunition or even if you have that permission to use it on ranges other than for testing / zeroing.

Another factor is the rifling twist rate that Ruger has selected for the PRS. The norm is 1 turn in 10-inches and that's the SAAMI controlling body's stated spec for the cartridge. A few makers use a tighter 1-9", principally Remington. 1 in 10 barely stabilises 100gn relatively short PSP bullets and certainly has no chance of stabilising longer match bullets. It just stabilises the 90gn Berger BT Match for instance, but not the 95gn VLD. For a standard 243, the only way of being competitive in mid-range match shooting is handloads with the 88gn Berger High-BC flat-base match bullet an unusual design which has a long areodynamic secant ogive (as per a VLD type) nose section, but instead of then usual L-R match bullet's boat-tail back end is flat-base. It makes a very good 600 yard bullet and some American mid-range BR shooters use it in the 6 Dasher and similar with good results. I doubt if you'd find any in stock in the UK, and it's a handloading only option anyway.

243 Win is an effective L-R match cartridge in custom build rifles with 30-inch 1 in 7.5 or 8" twist barrels throated out very long to accept 105-108gn HPBT match bullets seated well out (8" twist) or 115s (7.5" twist rate). John Whidden, the American gunsmith, toolmaker and rifle builder has used own-build 243s for many years and has just won the US Long-Range Nationals at Camp Perry yet again with these rifles. Barrel life is not good in this configuration, and Whidden runs three rifles / barrels concurrently all identically chambered.