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Not wishing to hijack or redirect the orig post but in a similar way , do u declare u carry firearms and ammo in your car if you run a Buisness motor ? I did and cost me big time in the end . Not to cover the ccntents , just to carry em . One Co wanted 2k extra , two wouldn't cover and one wanted all secured in Locked steel cabinets when in motor at all times . In the end cost extra 600 quid just to carry . ! Cheers

Dustyman wrote:Not wishing to hijack or redirect the orig post but in a similar way , do u declare u carry firearms and ammo in your car if you run a Buisness motor ? I did and cost me big time in the end . Not to cover the ccntents , just to carry em . One Co wanted 2k extra , two wouldn't cover and one wanted all secured in Locked steel cabinets when in motor at all times . In the end cost extra 600 quid just to carry . ! Cheers

That's an interesting question - no I don't declare my firearms to my motor insurer (although I run mine privately, I have been looking at putting a pickup thru the business).

I don't currently and don't think I ever will declare firearms to my motor insurer; unless, I had any that were specifically valuable and therefore over the limit for theft from motor vehicle (of possesions) but even then I'd request a higher value for theft from motor vehicle without specifying much more than sporting items.

I don't recall ever having seen firearms referred to specifically in any motor policy wording, therfore I would treat them as any other item I carry ( say an expensive bicycle - which I don't have but you see what I'm getting at?).

Now, balancing theft of firearm against my original insurance topic - there's a world of difference, gun nicked is lost property - life goes on, wheras I expire and my dependants don't get looked after - that's a life altering disaster magnified.

I must confess however, I don't see why the premiums in your case were loaded just to carry - where did the underwriter see the additional risk / liability of carrying the firearms whilst not insuring said firearms for their own inherent worth?

So to that end, no I won't declare firearms to my motor insurer in any case - I'm commiting no offense by not declaring, I'm avoiding what I would consider an entirely unecessary premium loading that smacks of profiteering, and that ultimately if they decline the claim for theft of vehicle contents (assuming I'm not under insured in that regard also) then I'm still alive to argue the toss and push it towards the ombudsman and so on.

Now, that's just my position - I'm not saying that this is the law or how anyone else should act, but for me - currently I'm comfortable to take the possible risk of a claim denied versus the certainty of a 600 quid a year loading (in this scenario only!).

I agree with Chuck on this matter.....both of us have been in the insurance business.....I too was an IFA...now retired.....

If YOU have any doubts about what to disclose on an insurance application...disclose everything, even if you feel it ti be irrelevant. If it IS irrelevant the insurer will ignore it...BUT at least they are aware and YOU are are clear in the knowledge that you are not going to be caught up in "failed to declare" situation much beloved of insurers today....

A salutory warning: a friend of mine took out a health insurance when he was in his 50s, specifically he was worried about the prospect of developing cancer and the consequent cost of treatment.....sadly, he did develop cancer...a form of lukemia....when he informed the insurer they, quite rightly, called for a full medical report from his GP....something that they could have done at the outset before accepting the risk....they then declined his claim because he had failed to declare that as 13 year old he had Pneumonia.....they used "failure to declare" clause to decline his claim. He was unaware that he had had pneumonia, it was something that was never mentioned to him whilst he was growing up.......however, the insurer was well within their rights as he had signed the application form with the declaration that he had made a full and frank disclosure of all matters that could relate to the risk......

The lesson..?......if in any doubt tell them everything......

targetman wrote:I agree with Chuck on this matter.....both of us have been in the insurance business.....I too was an IFA...now retired.....

If YOU have any doubts about what to disclose on an insurance application...disclose everything, even if you feel it ti be irrelevant. If it IS irrelevant the insurer will ignore it...BUT at least they are aware and YOU are are clear in the knowledge that you are not going to be caught up in "failed to declare" situation much beloved of insurers today....

A salutory warning: a friend of mine took out a health insurance when he was in his 50s, specifically he was worried about the prospect of developing cancer and the consequent cost of treatment.....sadly, he did develop cancer...a form of lukemia....when he informed the insurer they, quite rightly, called for a full medical report from his GP....something that they could have done at the outset before accepting the risk....they then declined his claim because he had failed to declare that as 13 year old he had Pneumonia.....they used "failure to declare" clause to decline his claim. He was unaware that he had had pneumonia, it was something that was never mentioned to him whilst he was growing up.......however, the insurer was well within their rights as he had signed the application form with the declaration that he had made a full and frank disclosure of all matters that could relate to the risk......

The lesson..?......if in any doubt tell them everything......

Yes and I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment for life / sickness etc policies - but as per my very latest reply as regards motor insurance, then for the reasons I gave earlier I will not be declaring for motor vehicle policies.

£600 quid loading - just to carry firearms - not even to insure the firearm for it's own inherent worth.

targetman wrote:...........

A salutory warning: a friend of mine took out a health insurance when he was in his 50s, specifically he was worried about the prospect of developing cancer and the consequent cost of treatment.....sadly, he did develop cancer...a form of lukemia....when he informed the insurer they, quite rightly, called for a full medical report from his GP....something that they could have done at the outset before accepting the risk....they then declined his claim because he had failed to declare that as 13 year old he had Pneumonia.....they used "failure to declare" clause to decline his claim. He was unaware that he had had pneumonia, it was something that was never mentioned to him whilst he was growing up.......however, the insurer was well within their rights as he had signed the application form with the declaration that he had made a full and frank disclosure of all matters that could relate to the risk......

The lesson..?......if in any doubt tell them everything......

The lesson serves only to confirm to many in the believe that the insurance industry are a bunch of deceitful crooks & why many dont bother with insurance other than mandatory. My accountant/IFA advises against many life insurers especially critical illness & loss of income & wont ever recommend travel insurance. Its virtually unregulated & the rules imposed are often underhand & deliberately designed to prevent & limit paying out vs the unlimited offers to attract premiums in. The continual stories like these undermine the 'industries' credibility that in many sections of society is right up there alongside lawyers, politicians & estate agents .

The story above is an appalling deceit, until recently many never had access to medical records, are not medically competent, let alone able judge what is / is not relevant. He disclosed what was asked on application & was shafted & I suspect if he took this to ombudsman he might have won? If not who was the insurance co because I will advise others to avoid them. Failed to declare is an abuse of contract to my & others view. What next failed to declare had a cold when age 2! is that any more relevant?

Social media might be the undoing of companies - it can connect people with common experience of underhand behaviour like this & they can begin to work together - & a class group action can be far more effective. Insurance cos only get away with it because they are large & have resources to in effect threaten individuals who are often ill or unable to fight for themselves.

I don't take out life insurance our family all contributes to a ISA fund to help each other, & insurance is used by many as a means of never having to plan for any eventuality.......... like carrying a spare wheel!

£600 quid loading - just to carry firearms - not even to insure the firearm for it's own inherent worth.

What is the definition of "CARRY", is it in connection with trade say as an RFD, if so declare it. Was the impression given that they were carried daily, either way it potentially makes the car a THEFT target due to what's in the boot! "Safes fitted", sounds like and S5/RFD requirement, that was the immediate reply from Scotplod and the insurers when I looked at S5 and RFD while back.

To and from the range: to be honest I never did as (a) it was so infrequent as to be irrelevant and (b) the chances of my having an accident are not increased by them being in the boot of the car. They were insured under all-risks so would never form part of a car insurance claim in event of theft from the boot or total write off of the car in an accident. Also it was always range and back with no detours when gun and ammo were in the car!

Bottom line is insurance companies always win, not that they are all shysters, just that people think they can be smart and keep it quiet.

T/Mans non disclosure is the perfect example. Not the first time I wrote "client unsure - recommend PMA report or PME report! No way would I land myself in the shiite because a client failed to disclose, because the agent ALWAYS gets the blame and can lose his liveliehood due to a client telling lies, as they do. . Likewise if you declined any part of what was offered in say Home Insurance, no worries - just write your initials and "declined" beside the bits you do not want!

The issue arose when I had a break in to my vehicle outside the house . Car lock auto if key out and also was locked anyway but someone cloned key or summat else but upshot was car was opened and stuff taken . Both household and own works insurance stated not covered cus not forced and violent entry plus works ins said outside works hours cus after 8 and before 7 or wound those hours . My own Buisness so I can be working from 4am to midnight , funny that , I'm at work but my insurance says its outside office hours ?? Any way I argued , my agent gave me some cash cus of our custom ,but both insurance co's said get stuffed . ( btw the changed the out of hour policy , I'm now covered up to midnight and after 3am !!!! What a p155 take ! ) . So co sequence I said to brokers cus you using all the loop holes make sure there's nothing else u can wriggle out of , make sure that I'm covered when carrying firearms and ammo and that it don't invalidate any claim by saying they not supposed to be in vehicle , then the arguments started .
Apparently according to the insurers , I am at a greater risk of being car jacked or attacked BECAUSE I am carrying firearms , therefore greater risk means higher premium . My answer , surely the opposite ,if I have firearms in motor , who's gonna try and take them ? Didn't go down very well .
But that's what bought it about . Other issue is in theory I'm carrying flammables in vehicle possibly in a reasonable quantity so if I crash and have a fire and truck damaged further cus of ammo you can bet the insurance would wriggle out and refuse to cover the total loss cus of the accelerant in the vehicle and that's a full loss not just covering for a bump or a small accident . I m sorry but I just don't trust insurance Co's and apologies to any one who works for them but that's my personal view after three times being shafted by them . We have to have insurance but I'm sorry I just believe you are covered till you claim , thanks for your money now sod off is the response I seem to have gotten most times. And that's not just one ins Co that's three diff ones .

End of rant , happy Christmas to all :-)

The issue arose when I had a break in to my vehicle outside the house .

Merry Christmas Dustyman. Did you claim any damage to the vehicle on your car insurance..i.e.did you make a car claim??? That would incur loss of NCD - plus inevitable rise in premiums plus perceived additional risk premium.

That is probably the key to the whole thing...(no pun intended)! Your insurers probably put 2+2 together, got 5 and decided to hike the premium based on perceived risk...Best advice now is: Shop around!

Most people do not understand that insurance is a LEGAL document /arrangement written by clever lawyer people and designed to cover as broad a spectrum as possible....Your broker /agent is just that - and in event of a claim he really is not too much use as the contract is between YOU and the Insurer, not you and the broker.

I said to brokers cus you using all the loop holes make sure there's nothing else u can wriggle out of

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Apparently according to the insurers , I am at a greater risk of being car jacked or attacked BECAUSE I am carrying firearms , therefore greater risk means higher premium . My answer , surely the opposite ,if I have firearms in motor , who's gonna try and take them ? Didn't go down very well .

Wrong answer there, the correct answer should be something like " - and you have staistical evidence to back that up then? How many car jacking cases have you had attributable to firearms being carried." Answer of course is NONE!

In the old days when you actually worked for the company you had a better chance of advising people and seeing that a claim was handled in the best possible manner. I've seen countless cases where people were not insured because their agent simply sold them the cheapest policy he could, competing on price alone...that was always a good way to write new business for me and I would think for T/Man too!.

I'm at work but my insurance says its outside office hours ?? Those are generally perceived as 9am - 5pm

IMO your broker has maybe let you down a bit because he did not understand the nature of your business and hours involved.Were you sold a bog standard policy (no sure what it is or your business of course) but based on what you have said a better understanding of your insurance requirements by way of detailed supporting info such as long / unsocial hours etc would have gone down well (it always does).

Whatever small print affects you, it is usually the 3rd last paragraph on the second last page.

This from our policy:

Your side of the bargain Remember, your premium and insurance cover will be based specifically on the details you provide to us. So the information you give us will form a record of your unique combination of demands, needs and circumstances.

Please make sure the information you send us is complete and accurate, and inform us immediately of any changes in circumstances that may affect the services provided by us or the cover provided by your policy. This is particularly important before taking out a policy, but it also applies throughout the life of a policy.

You need to bear in mind: if you fail to disclose any information material to the insurance you could invalidate the policy and claims may not be paid; you should read and check all insurance documents to ensure that you are aware of the cover, limits and other terms that apply; please be aware of all terms and conditions of your policy as failure to comply with them could invalidate it; in the event of a claim, you should take note of the required procedures, such as prompt notice to us of the claims, as stated in the policy documentation; as with any insurance, you have an obligation to take reasonable steps to mitigate any loss.