The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

I found this picture earlier this year, it is of SMLE rifles in store in India receiving a blessing , India have kept many thousands of SMLE's Bren guns and Vickers guns in store "just in case".

By the way i have one of the Ishapore 7.62 SMLE's it is dated to 1966 and it shoots as well as any Lee Enfield. It was quite a good deal, only £200

DaveB wrote:

Les wrote:If it ain't broken, why change it?!

Unfortunately, in the case of the Rangers, it is broken. In my days at Canadian Forces Base Toronto (formerly RCAF Station Downsview for those of a historical bent) there were cases of No 4 Mk 1* rifles in 1 Canadian Forces Supply Depot. When the CF went to the C7 (M16A1E8), thousands of C1A1 rifles, C2A1 LMGs and SMG C1A1 were placed there in long-term storage (war reserve).

Those days, sadly, are long gone - as is 1 CFSD ( which was once one of the largest buildings in Canada under a single roof, and which I understand is now largely abandoned except for occasional use as a movie set), and also CFB Toronto - which is now a park. As I understand it the SLRs and SMGs were all destroyed. Parts for the No 4s are non-existent. They ran out of replacement barrels in the late 1980s, and stocks of other parts have long since been exhausted. Cannibalisation can only go so far. They are BER (Beyond Economical Repair).

What I am utterly unable to fathom is why the CF can't get its ass out of dead low gear, and identify a replacement. Apparently the whole project management in the CF is a disaster - they have reportedly turned-back millions in funding to the government over the last few years because they are so short of personnel to manage projects that they simply don't get done. The Ranger rifle is just one example.

I must admit it is a baffling situation considering the requirements are fairly simple. A .308/7.62 NATO calibre bolt action rifle, robust and able to withstand cold conditions. Something with a wooden stock (apparently better suited to the cold conditions of the North) and suitable scope thrown in as part of the deal. It doesn't need to be a military spec Sniper rifle, actually a hunting rifle makes more sense considering current usage.

I note that the recent replacement program requires them to be licence built at the Colt Canada facility. Frankly I question the worth of that, it adds unnecessary cost imho. There are a number of commercial rifles that would fit the bill.

Fedaykin wrote:
I note that the recent replacement program requires them to be licence built at the Colt Canada facility. Frankly I question the worth of that, it adds unnecessary cost imho. There are a number of commercial rifles that would fit the bill.

That is baffling - since Colt Canada (formerly Diemaco) has no experience whatever building a bolt-action rifle. The only thing they have ever built is the C7/C8 rifle family. Sounds like yet another case of defence being held hostage to politics.

The Canadian government (not just this one but the ones that preceded it as well) has lost the plot when it comes to defence matters. We (I say we 'cause this happened when I still lived in Canada) paid well over the odds for the C7/C8 in order to set up a domestic facility to produce small arms. OK, that is expensive but a secure domestic source of supply for critical items like small arms is worth a bit of extra investment. Same for SNC (IVI) - we paid a premium to keep a domestic ammunition supplier in business.

Fast forward a few years and the idiots in government have let Diemaco be sold to Colt, and SNC's ammunition business sold to General Dynamics. Now the only two Canadian producers of weapons or ammunition are in US hands. What happens when the scarcity of small arms and ammunition caused by a decade of war and 8 years of fears of what Obama will do with gun control laws are over? Excess capacity will need to be closed. Are American firms going to throw American workers out of work, or will they instead throw Canadians out of work?? So Canada will find itself, once again, without domestic sources of arms or ammunition, and the poor taxpayer will foot the bill to start the whole process over again.

If it wasn't for bad ideas, these guys would have no ideas at all.

Yep not following through after significant expenditure is a common feature of Canadian defence procurement in the last few decades.

The EH101 and APARS radar debacle spring to mind a helicopter and radar system that Canada spent a vast amount money on then didn't actually buy.

Ahh, the EH101 debacle! That was a purely political decision by Jean Chretien (or as I like to call him Cretin) who made an election promise that if his Liberal party won, he would cancel the programme. Unfortunately he was elected and he did cancel the procurement. Never mind that it cost hundreds of millions of dollars in lost costs and penalties.

What a lot of people do not know is that later, and then very, very quietly, they bought the Cyclone - a less-capable version of the same helicopter for civilian search and rescue. Then eventually another different but also less capable helo for military purposes. So now instead of a single fleet with the same parts and maintenance regime, they have two less-capable helos with completely different parts and support. What a great idea! NOT.

Politicians should be forbidden by law from interfering in military procurement decisions - since they know nothing whatever about the military, military equipment or indeed anything about putting the nation above their own petty ambition.

DaveB wrote:

Fedaykin wrote:
I note that the recent replacement program requires them to be licence built at the Colt Canada facility. Frankly I question the worth of that, it adds unnecessary cost imho. There are a number of commercial rifles that would fit the bill.

That is baffling - since Colt Canada (formerly Diemaco) has no experience whatever building a bolt-action rifle. The only thing they have ever built is the C7/C8 rifle family. Sounds like yet another case of defence being held hostage to politics.

The Canadian government (not just this one but the ones that preceded it as well) has lost the plot when it comes to defence matters. We (I say we 'cause this happened when I still lived in Canada) paid well over the odds for the C7/C8 in order to set up a domestic facility to produce small arms. OK, that is expensive but a secure domestic source of supply for critical items like small arms is worth a bit of extra investment. Same for SNC (IVI) - we paid a premium to keep a domestic ammunition supplier in business.

Fast forward a few years and the idiots in government have let Diemaco be sold to Colt, and SNC's ammunition business sold to General Dynamics. Now the only two Canadian producers of weapons or ammunition are in US hands. What happens when the scarcity of small arms and ammunition caused by a decade of war and 8 years of fears of what Obama will do with gun control laws are over? Excess capacity will need to be closed. Are American firms going to throw American workers out of work, or will they instead throw Canadians out of work?? So Canada will find itself, once again, without domestic sources of arms or ammunition, and the poor taxpayer will foot the bill to start the whole process over again.

If it wasn't for bad ideas, these guys would have no ideas at all.

I recently read that Colt/Canada is selling C7/C8 rifles to other nation's military forces including the UK as the L119. Colt/Canada is also going to sell a sporter version on the domestic market.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/ ... ian-public

Yes the UK armed forces have had a surprisingly long relationship with the Diemco now Colt Canada C7 and C8.

The SAS adopted the C7 as a replacement for the G3 in 1984 and was later adopted by UKSF in general. It was also used by Pathfinder Platoon and Brigade Patrol troop of the Paras and Commandos respectively.

The C8 CQB has now been adopted as the L119A1 (as you noted) and has recently been adopted for close protection use by the Royal Military Police in Afghanistan:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-c ... 60x539.jpg
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-c ... 44x660.jpg

The C8 CQB has also been adopted by British Transport Police and it is not unusual too see armed officers at major stations in London like St.Pancras armed with this rifle:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kenjonbro/7156586435/

As I understand it the C7/C8 are highly popular with those British forces lucky enough to get their hands on them and it would be a popular choice as an L85A2 replacement down the line.

A few years back I was lucky enough to shoot with the Paras who had just been issued Diemarco C8's. There was some secrecy around them having C8's and they forbade any photos of that particular firearm. They did however allow us to shoot the C8's and they were far superior to the SA80 in just about every way. That was quite a day as we shot GPMG and Minimi full auto, but only semi auto with the C8 and SA80.

Good to see a left hooker (see flicker link) for a change. I've always thought pairing left & right handed shooter operationally to be a sensible thing?

The old M16A1 was not left hand shooter friendly at all which I learned at Army basic training when I got an ejected case stuck to my neck on the qualifying range. I had the burn mark scar for several years after that! The revised upper with the case deflector is perfect for a left shoulder shooter such as me. Haven't been hit with an ejected case ever with an A2 type upper no matter how much I crawl up the stock.

The British Army has almost as long a history with the Colt rifle as the U.S. Army. They used M16s way back in the 60s for far east operations. I've seen photos from the 60s and 70s of UK Gurkha troops armed with M16s.