Changes in the law relating to firearms and shotguns

[Robin128]

What I am saying is get the Airguns of new users (initially) licensed and train them for half a day, surely you must agree gun safety is of the highest importance for all shooters?

So now we have people young and old that are new to the sport (Who will possible will move on towards SGC's and/or FAC's at a later date) trained in the basics of safety, never point a loaded airgun at anyone, treat all airguns as loaded, where you can and cannot shoot, safety zones and backdrops etc. Surely that is a good thing? Times change, just because we didn’t need to do it does not mean it was right.


No problem with safety training as you know, even though you suggest just half a day. My experience indicates a few months probationary membership and training just about makes a new young shooter safe. Two tier system of gun control? :roll: So big brother or Dad or friend buys the airgun and lends to someone else to use. Do you think Police/CPS are going to enforce new law when they can't afford to enforce present law that can send down abusers? How long do you think it will take all airguns to be licenced...60 years? Any idea what it would cost? Remember we are trying to cut back. Higher fees will kill the sport and get ploughed back into Treasury without action plan being started. Sorry, don't think its a runner.

Back to the 10 years olds. Why do they need SGCs? Is this so Dad can say look at little Billy 10 years old and holds an SGC? Or is there a more valid reason.

Only a few certs are issued each year to 10 year olds. I have explained above my understanding of the law with relevant quotes from the HO Guidance notes and Firearms Acts. Perhaps someone else has a better understanding of the technicalities of the law. Someone has a bee in his bonnet over the Cumbria enquiry that has no relevance to what Bird did. They want to raise the 10 year old minimum age. There is no risk in my view of a few 10 year olds in the UK having certs when they are still required to shoot supervised. Perhaps there is a CPSA rule???

So to summarise, I firmly believe that the existing firearms control framework does not need altering...it just needs to be enforced...at the granting/renewal stages and everyday in response to complaints about misuse and ongoing monitoring of cert holders criminal activity and mental health....current law already covers this.

I do think it is worth legal shooters to do some sensitivity and risk analysis, given our Government's past performance... both tory and labour governments have done nothing to improve our lot as legal shooters ... and nothing to deter illegal use of guns despite the bans imposed on legal shooters. Just think...what if?

HTH

Rob

[Robin128]

Come on ovenpaa...don't give up!

:)

Rob

[ovenpaa]

Sheesh! I only do politics one day a year Rob! I will ponder and get back to you shortly, are you still fuelled on Stollen?

[Robin128]

It's all gone...burp!!

I'm relying on you to suggest a workable solution to all these gaps in coverage in the firearms regultions and laws. Come on...you've got my attention!

If things don't change, they will remain the same.

Rob

[ovenpaa]

Well we agree on safety which is a start, and yes a 3/6 month probation period is vastly better but not workable, however the erm... lets call it ACBT (Airgun Compulsory basis training) for air weapons is a good start. Lets say that you cannot buy an air rifle if you are under the age of 21yrs without producing your ACBT effective 2012 and by 2015 everyone must produce an ACBT or FAC or SGC that shows they are aware of the consequences of handling such an item. Make it law in 2018 that anyone without one of the three found in possession of an Airgun is liable to a GBP30 fine and the gun destroyed.

Why is an airgun so different to a RF/CF rifle apart from a muzzle energy, why should I be told what I can and cannot do with my rifles when the chap down the road can own 500 quids worth Theoben or whatever capable of killing every bird in sight, plus the little gal down the road with a misplaced shot.

10 year olds...... I give up on this one as I still cannot see why they need SGC's/FAC's at 10 years old, frankly I believe they would be in a club if they are competing and can shoot on the club licence or mum/dads FAC who are probably going to be paying for the rifle anyway.

[Blu]

Hope you don't mind if I add my tuppence worth even though I admit I am not up on UK firearms law.

Over here a young person may go to the range with a parent and shoot, not a problem age doesn't matter. A person must be 18 years old here to go afield or to the range on their own. Here's the thing, anyone under 21 years old who goes to buy a rifle or shotgun must fill in the usual Federal paperwork but they must also furnish a hunters safety and safe firearms handling certificate, handguns are a whole different ball game, 21 and up to buy.

This is a four day course over two weekends with 2 days spent on hunter safety while out in the field which covers identifying a target(s), weather conditions, shot placement awareness, meaning being aware of whats behind the target should a round pass through or in the event of a miss, these are just a couple of the things they have to take in. Last but not least is the basic legal aspects simplified so the kids can understand it.

The second weekend is firearms handling and safety, the things the kids learn there are much the same thing you folks know or learn. A child has to be twelve years old and up to attend the course. Anyone born after 1960 if they want to purchase a hunting licence has to have the hunter and firearms safety certificate, don't know why they chose that date but they did. Attending a course is easy as every shooting club runs the courses over here and they are all run by NRA trained and State approved instructors.

So do you think something like that would work over there in the UK, it certainly gets the young folks involved and helps keep the sport alive and strong over here. I sit here sometimes shaking my head at the some of the stuff you folks write about pertaining to UK firearms law. I once downloaded the entire UK firearms act from another shooting forum, man my brain hurt after reading it or trying to.

It has the right idea IMHO but it is way too complicated and bogged down in red tape, I think it needs to be simplified some and then some again.

I'm surprised most of you ever contemplate going out shooting what with all the rules they have in place, it's a frigging mine field. I take my hat of to you all.

Blu

[Robin128]

Apart from deer stalking quals, ie dsc1 etc, its less complicated here to get an open or semi open FAC for Fox and vermin than as you describe in the USA.

BASC has gone a long way to presenting all the Acts in a consolidation (see Library section) but it is still a mine-field. Everyone would like to see the law simplified, but for some reason or another (mainly the legal world saying they are worried about gaps, anomalies and conflicts arising) the Acts never get consolidated. As you know they date back to 1968.

All in favour of training but we don't seem to have problems with hunters taking unsafe shots etc. We certainly need to keep the sport alive and strong. Training here comes in the shape of qualified instructors in clubs during and after probationary periods. My Police require applicants for open licences to demonstrate experience and have suitable land to shoot over, including written permission from land owners and tenants. If they are not satisfied then they may ask you to put forward the name of a mentor...I've done this for my mate...maintained a diary of all shooting where, when and what I have gone thru in terms of what may and may not be shot, and with what firearm. What is and isn't a safe shot.

We need new laws and procedures like a hole in the head. Most clubs have a mean age of about 57. There are very few young shooters. Everytime something terrible has happened here with firearms it has been with certificated shooters, it would appear...but no-one seems to keep a tally on all those hundreds shot each year with illegally held guns. Someone is shot everyday in most big cities here...by scroates holding illegally held guns.

Nothing is pointing to more training...everything points at the inconsistent application of the law in respect to granting, renewal, monitoring etc. And on airguns, there is no need to change the law, just to apply the current law.

Blu, you know this country is different to yours...you have experience in both UK and USA.

If Government just does a good job of consolidating the Acts...then fine...but no-one thinks they will, not the average shooter, not the legal fraternity. Wonder why our Government are not trusted...we lost handguns and SLRs...and to no avail.

Rob

PS Barney is back...say hello!

[Robin128]

Here is an extract from BASC's response to HO Cttee Enquiry - Firearms Control ...

"5) THE DANGERS PRESENTED BY, AND LEGISLATION REGULATING AIRGUNS

5.0) It is a common misconception that although most airguns are not licensed, they are not subject to any controls. Any airgun which is capable of inflicting a lethal injury is legally classified as a firearm. For offences relating to the prevention of crime and the preservation of public safety, airguns are treated in the same way as any other firearm. Those who misuse airguns are subject to over 30 criminal charges with penalties including fines and imprisonment.

5.1) Since the HAC last considered this issue in 1999 -2000, there have been four new pieces of legislation to regulate the use and possession of airguns.

5.2) It is estimated that there are 7 million airguns in the UK, owned by 5 million people. Airguns are a very important part of the gun trade’s business and Britain leads the world in the innovation and development of them.

5.3) Since 1969, air rifles held without a licence have been limited in power to a kinetic energy of 12 foot-pounds (ft/lbs). By comparison a .22 rimfire rifle, used for training cadets, target shooting and small pest control has a kinetic energy of around 135 ft/lbs and a standard shotgun can easily reach 1350 ft/lbs. Air pistols are limited to 6 ft/lbs. Above these power levels, air rifles can only be possessed on the authority of a firearm certificate and such air pistols are prohibited weapons.

5.4) Air rifles and pistols are used in target shooting up to Olympic level. Low powered air rifles (< 12 ft/lbs) fire a light projectile over short distances and are also used to control pests up to the size of a rabbit at ranges up to 25 yards. They are effective around buildings where it would be dangerous to use conventional firearms.

5.5) Home Office statistics show that in 2008/09, the level of airgun offences declined by 19% which in turn was a fall of 15% over the previous year. The overall decline in airgun offences since the peak year of 2003/4 is 56%.

5.6) Although violent crime has increased, violence against the person with airguns has fallen over the last 38 years. The increase in offences of criminal damage with airguns is attributable to economic factors as the recording level of £20 has been halved in value by inflation.

5.7) The use of airguns by young people is heavily regulated, viz,
• It is an offence for anyone to fire an air pellet beyond the premises where they have permission to shoot.
• Young people under 14 may not use an airgun unless they are supervised by someone over 21.
• Young people between 14 -17 years of age may not buy or hire an airgun or ammunition or receive one as a gift. A person within this age group may not carry an airgun in a public place at any time unless supervised by a person of or over 21 years and then only with a good reason for doing so.
• Nobody under 18 years may buy an airgun or its ammunition.

5.8) Retrospective licensing of air weapons would not improve public safety because it could not be enforced. There are no records of airgun owners and recent experience suggests that the measure would be met with massive non compliance.

5.9) Licensing airguns would impose an intolerable administrative burden on the police which would have an adverse impact on public safety by diverting scarce resources away from front-line policing and firearms licensing. The firearms licensing system is already stretched to its limits in many police forces.

5.10) In 1999 an Adjournment Debate was held in Parliament on air weapons. The then Home Office Minister, Paul Boateng MP concluded that the solution to airgun misuse was education of young people and enforcement of existing law. BASC supports this sensible stance."


Rob

[Chuck]

Mate of mine had an airgun club that was hounded out of existence by the gutter press after Dunblane...............nuff said!

Bottom line, they do NOT want us to have guns so get used to it. Moving shotguns to FAC has an ulterior motive, maybe NEED will be more closely monitored..like how many shells you go through - just like real ammo. Maybe then it will be easier to outlaw say 3 shot semi as they become full bore and full bore semi not allowed, I know we have S1 shotguns for specific reason but that reason is NOT clays. And what about the transition from SGC to S1 FOR sgc only holders.

DO NOT TRUST THEM, YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE.

[The Gun Pimp]

A bit more info.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /44708.htm

Cheers
Vince