Primer Storage

[knewmans]

I asked the FEO what storage requirements there were for primers. He said none but would check and get back to me that afternoon if he was wrong which he didn't.

[Pete]

Sorry Laurie, my point was that reloader's, and anyone else who has cause to handle primers, should already know what the dangers are.

From some of the comments on this thread, they clearly don't...........

Pete

[Mattnall]

About 20 years ago we had a visit from the HSE officer to do a check on the business. I asked about the storage of propellant and he told me that the best container to keep the powder in was the plastic tub it came in and put that on a shelf in the workshop away from any source of heat/flame. If it did by accident catch fire it would burn fiercly but not explode. When I asked about storing it in a box he said no as it could possibly increase the pressure if if caught fire and explode out of the box.

Then along came the BP 'put it in a box' storage conditions and now we may have to do the same with shooters' powders.

As an aside when I had BP at home the FEO asked be to store in a box, I had something suitable that fitted on top of my cabinet nicely. The FEO said I wasn't to fix it to the house/cabinet as in a fire I should be able to throw it out the window (WTF! The thing I'm running away from in a fire is the explosives) and I should paint it with a bright diamond so the firebrigade could find it easily (as I would have already run away). However, after making it bright and obvious I then had to hide it in the loft right above the heads of the firemen walking through the flaming shell of my house not even knowing that they are looking for, or trying to avoid, a box of explosives.

[Chapuis]

Pete I think that part of the problem may be that many, not all I might add, that have got into reloading simply haven't read a reloading manual. In fact some don't even own one and simply rely upon the internet for data. Therefore they possibly don't know what you are talking about when you mention priming compounds being primary explosives. I've had a couple of interesting experiences in my reloading career sufficient to give me a healthy respect of just how potent primers actually are.

While not wishing to deviate this thread any further than I have already done so, can anyone remember when it wasn't possible to buy certain brands of large rifle primers without an explosives licence? Winchester was one brand if I recall correctly.
The problem was apparently all to do with the packaging but was resolved when Winchester changed their packaging so that each individual primer was separated in the sleeve. I was told at the time which was 40 odd years ago by a well know RFD, that there had been an incident in one of their plants where a forklift had run over a pallet of primers resulting in a mass detonation and fire. However we all know how reliable some of the stories told by RFDs can be.

At the time I attempted to get the necessary explosives licence to purchase primers from my local trading standards department who were supposed to issue such licences, but they kept referring me back to the police who insisted that trading standards issued the licences.

[Laurie]

Sorry Laurie, my point was that reloader's, and anyone else who has cause to handle primers, should already know what the dangers are.

From some of the comments on this thread, they clearly don't...........

Pete

Thanks Pete. Sorry, I read your comment 180-degrees out. I couldn't agree more. This is basic safety stuff.

[WelshShooter]

It conjures up an interesting scenario in my head of householders standing outside their burning dwelling listening to possibly thousands of rounds of ammunition going off in the confines of Home Office approved steel cabinets and saying "at least my stash of primers may yet be saved, so there's that". :)

You wouldn't even hear your ammunition in steel cabinets 'cook-off' even if you were inside the house. Smallarms ball ammunition is given the lowest hazard classification 'safety class' for a reason. It is very hard to make it ignite outside of a firearm, heat/fire being the almost sole exception; despite Hollywood etc, test after test after test shows that even in a fierce fire, ordinary ball or sporting ammo does NOT explode. When the powder charge ignites inside a cartridge which has no confining chamber, two possible occurrences take place - either the bullet is 'popped' at virtually nil velocity and the powder then burns hotly but non-explosively inside the case and/or if the bullet is a really tight fit, the brass case splits first, but with the same results as bullet removal.

There are lots of videos and research papers around on this subject including those done specifically for firefighter training.

Here's one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c

Anyway, who said your stash of primers will be saved? It won't and they'll explode - but if stored in a non-confining box or whatever, the life of a firefighter might be! To repeat myself, that's why the BP storage regulations are as they are - not to stop its exploding in a fire but to mitigate the power of that explosion and its possible lethality for anybody close by, but in particular firefighters.

The video in the link was pretty cool, thanks for sharing. It debunked quite a few myths spread by Hollywood and the like. For example, I would have thought that putting a blasting cap in with a box of munitions would set them all off, not just the primer it was pushed against!

On the other hand, it's made me realise just how insensitive the primers are more than anything!

[Laurie]

Once they're snugly inside the case-head pocket, primers are very well protected indeed. Think about a typical modern case-head. It's designed to take 60,000 + psi from the inside so it's not going to deform easily from attack from the outside.

It takes a very specific type of action to make a seated primer explode. Again, think of a sectioned primer. From the outside firing pin end inwards, it's brass cup, explosive pellet, and the little two or three prong 'anvil' with its tip ideally nestling just against the explosive. The cup has to be punched in fast in such a way it crushes the pellet between the indented cup and the anvil tip. If crushed slowly, ignition probably doesn't occur, so it needs a sharp blow from a small diameter instrument.

Setting up these conditions outside of a firearm isn't easy - even a blasting cap alongside the case-body as in the video won't do it. It might breach a case or two and a small amount of spilt powder might ignite - but note that even when that occurs, lots of kernels don't ignite and there is no cartridge to cartridge chain reaction.

All this is why loaded and properly packaged ammunition is very safe indeed aznd has a very low UN dangerous good classification. After all when needed the military hump cans of it out of moving trucks, choppers etc and the odd dented one aside it still works and doesn't explode on impact with the ground.

Take the primer out of the case though and it becomes the most dangerous thing you probably handle in your daily life with the possible exception of the family car. Any major impact may ignite one or more and external heat as in a building fire may see a mass or near mass detonation.

[Oddbod]

I'm pretty sure anyone who has loaded a large amount of ammunition will have had a primer seat sideways at some point & the more "adventurous" will have decapped a live case for one reason or another.
I've done both more than once over the years & never (yet...) had a primer detonate when doing so.
I think this demonstrates how intrinsically safe they are & they will very rarely detonate except in the approved manner & place.
Though I wouldn't want to set fire to a box of them...

[Laurie]

One reason for checking loaded rounds very carefully is to check primer seating - no sideways ones or standing proud. (If primed on a hand tool, you should never get into either situation anyway.)

However one thing that needs a visual check is to ensure none is seated upside down, ie cup inwards and anvil facing out. I have seen the very occasional factory cartridge like this over the years. For a long time I didn't think the primer would ignite if the cartridge was chambered and an attempt made to fire it. That was until two or three years ago when I was RO-ing on a benchrest equipped covered firing point for a guy sighting a moderated sporting rifle in. He took a shot, there was a sharp crack, but of much lower intensity than an unmoderated 243 or 308 would be (and his rifle had a very efficient mod anyway). Misfire says he and we kept the bolt closed for a while in case of hangfire - but I thought the sound all wrong for that - like an HV rimfire not the muted sound of a primer alone if he'd forgotten the powder charge.

The bolt wouldn't open more than a part turn and when the rifle was shaken, something inside rattled. We tried for a while then took it back to the range-house - looked like a gunsmith job. The Gun Pimp on this forum back in the house heard the story and knew immediately what the cause was - a reversed primer that had ignited and the trapped blast between bolt and case-head had blown the Sako-type extractor off locking the action up. After a lot of further fiddling, the bolt was opened confirming Vince's hypothesis. He'd seen exactly the same thing a few years before but in that example, it was a gunsmith job, the barrel having to be removed to free up the loose parts. You may still need some new extractor bits or other repair though if this happens to you. Again, an illustration of the surprising potency of these little devices.

[Dark Skies]

I'm pretty sure anyone who has loaded a large amount of ammunition will have had a primer seat sideways at some point & the more "adventurous" will have decapped a live case for one reason or another.
I've done both more than once over the years & never (yet...) had a primer detonate when doing so.
I think this demonstrates how intrinsically safe they are & they will very rarely detonate except in the approved manner & place.
Though I wouldn't want to set fire to a box of them...

Good points. Quite often you'll be merrily hand priming cases, in your rhythm, when you get interrupted by a primer jamming up hard with quite a bit of force behind it. You'd think the sort of pressure you're applying would set it off. It never does. Primers are fussy like that - they require a sharp impact central, or as near as makes no odds, in order to depress the metal cap thereby crushing the primer material against the anvil to spark, igniting the charge. If there were any danger of moderate imprecise rough handling setting one off and causing a chain reaction then Lee hand-loaders and similar wouldn't exist. With some hundred plus primers closely packed together waiting to follow their buddy it would be too dangerous to market what some here might think of as a live grenade in the making.

Your post also brings up a recollection of a foolish error I made twenty years ago when I first started reloading. I'd found myself short of small rifle primers to reload .223 Remington ammunition. I'd booked a day at the range the following morning so was in a bit of a jam. I used small pistol primers instead, reasoning they'd be fine. I mentioned this to a friend as he was driving us to the range and he wondered whether they might be too weak to set off the charge properly and I'd end up with a bullet stuck half way up the barrel. This played on my mind after being seeded in my noggin and I bottled on firing them - buying ammunition from the shop once we got there.

This left me with a bit of problem as I now had 100 rounds of dud ammo. I pulled the bullets, reclaimed the powder, and now had cases with the wrong primer in. I was too tight to waste them by capping off in the rifle. So I donned a pair of safety goggles (the all enclosing type - not the placcy specs), put on my ear muffs, and gingerly started to press out the live primers in my Lee press. After the first ten hadn't gone off I got a bit cocky and increased my rhythm and was flying. Not a one went off and I was able to reuse them in pistol rounds shortly after. Nobody was more surprised than I that they didn't go off in the first tentative minutes. Primers take an awful lot of effort to make them go bang by mistake it seems.

I've not had to repeat the exercise - I learn from my mistakes. However it was a useful experience and something to share with the pub experts.