E MAIL FROM A CLUB TONIGHT

[Chuck]

TackB - not much more to be said is there.

How much of this nonsense has had an impact on crime?? Anyone?? Sim??

[Sim G]

well if i wanted to ban something I would put progressively more and more regulations and restrictions plus more and more irrelevant record keeping until it was really easy to trip people up and remove whatever it was I wanted to ban , I'd probably use the public purse to do this as well ! I might even offer an incredibly frustrating system of regulation with all sorts of ambiguous laws and enforce it randomly depending where abouts in the country you are ?

that's what I'd do anyway if I decided I didn't like something one of the most law abiding sections of the community did.

and if that section of the community were happy to throw each other to the wolves to protect their individual part of that thing it would make my life so much easier !

You actually do have a choice with this, your club does not have to comply, it then becomes a private gun club which is not Home Office approved. There are however, certain laws and privileges afforded a Home Office approved club that a private club does not have, such a s15 of the 1988 Amendment Act.

[Sim G]

How much of this nonsense has had an impact on crime?? Anyone?? Sim??

I'd imagine very little in the day to day criminal use. However, these are all in the wake of Dunblane. Hamilton had been granted authority to possess firearms where he had no facility to use them. Even though his club initially counter signed his FAC, that was about the extent of it. At the time of the atrocity he had not been a club member for two years.

There has been no bigger critic of the then Central Scotland Police, or their then ACC McMurdo, than me. The whole debacle around Hamilton was a damning indictment of that police force at that time, but, the whole gamut of legislation and guidance after Dunblane was not about affecting gun crime per se. It was about limiting as much as possible the chance that a former member of a home office approved gun club, could, still possess firearms and with his legally held pistols, commit another atrocity.

That was the single objective and if it is looked at as impartially as possible, it can be seen that that objective has possibly been achieved...

[Blackstuff]

Well, until 2010 anyway. But knowing the Snowdrop lot they'd probably say "Ah well the people in Cumbria weren't shot with pistols so that doesn't count"

[Sim G]

In all honesty Mark, I think that's a valid point. The Whitehaven shootings didn't happen with a pistol and we were bloody lucky not to face more legislation in the wake of it.

[tackb]

So we face punitive legislation because the authority's failed to do their job properly ?

Didn't the FEO recommend Hamilton not have his cert but was overruled?

100year closure on the report , not suspicious at all

Sorry but it stinks

[Sim G]

Several people, several times recommended Hamilton have his certificates removed. ACC McMurdo thought otherwise....

[Activ8]

My home club has always had this policy. We declare which firearm we're using at each visit and it's recorded by the duty manager.

Never once been asked at Warrington what I'll be shooting, let alone had it recorded! Only ever have my membership book stamped & pay my fee's.

[breacher]

Three words for you ..........

BURDEN OF PROOF.

Once you have been granted authority for a firearm, and the authorities suspect you are not using it enough - it is for THEM to prove it. Not for you to prove that you are using it enough.

Once you demonstrate a need at time of variation, that need remains in place until such time as THEY prove you no longer have the need.

Keeping a register is merely gathering the evidence they need !

And Home Office guidance is not law.

I dont see any reference to recording serial numbers in the relevant LEGISLATION.

Of course the burden of proof returns to the FAC holder at time of renewal. He/she has to demonstrate that his need continues. However, how that need is demonstrated is not specified in legislation. Sure, a log from the club would assist but I would argue a competition result published or even a statement from a witness who has seen you using the firearm would suffice unless they wanted to challenge it for some reason whereby the court would decide whether on the balance of probabilities, the FAC holder and witness were lying !

[ovenpaa]

I was shooting this weekend and the shooting register did not even mention the rifle make or cartridge, let alone serial number.