Israel: Giving its people a chance.

Anything shooting related including law and procedure questions.

Moderator: dromia

Forum rules
Should your post be in Grumpy Old Men? This area is for general shooting related posts only please.
Message
Author
ordnance
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:00 pm
Location: N. Ireland. UK.
Contact:

Re: Israel: Giving its people a chance.

#81 Post by ordnance »

Chuck wrote:Breacher:
One thing that a lot of the "let me carry for self defence" guys forget is the fact that its easy to shoot paper targets. Not everybody is capable of taking human life. Some do it without a second thought. Some will hesitate before doing it - depending on the proximity of the threat, this hesitation may or may not be an issue. Some just cannot do it.

Hell, I have met some target shooters who became a bundle of nerves when offered a deer to shoot.

And all of this is before you take into account andrenalin and stress of a sitation that you are not used to encountering.

You will never know for sure until you actually find yourself in the situation.
Good post!

If you have to think whether you should shoot or not then you probably should not. However, there's more to carrying than many people are aware of.

if you take a PROPER defensive firearms course, NOT a CLASS then what breacher says is actually part of that course. There are a LOT of considerations to take into account and you do need to ask yourself some deep questions like:

Am I prepared to shoot a man, a woman, a youth, a child even?? How about a work colleague you hav eknown for ages. Then of course there's the aftermath: legals, employer response, religious issues, family and friends - how will they see you now that you hav etaken a life. Let's face it, the liberals will hate you for it, to them you are just like the guy who tried to hurt you....maybe your freinds, employer etc will feel the same.

Next there's the possibility of a civil lawsuit from the family of "deceased good guy" or the attacker himself who was just sharpening his pencil when you "happened upon him standing around the corner and gave him a fright".

Then of course there's the emotional issues: guilt, self doubt, elation, PTSD even?

The whole carry issue is more than just having a gun. You have legal and moral obligations fire higher than any police officer has because you do NOT have a badge of authority like a police officer has.

You go to trial then maybe your jury are all mebers of some anti gun crowd..you have all seen how the media distorts.

Back to ammo - we get asked, what's the "best ammo" etc etc..well home loads and such are out so the simple answer is "what do the police use"? In the USA if you are using what the local PD are using you have a much better chance of a clean outcome both in the fight and the legals afterwards. Yes you can look at BP, flintlocks, weird calibres etc etc etc - then look at how a court of law will view that choice.

Of course every state is different and someone will know someone etc etc - the bottom line is if you carry a gun, get insurance, get your lawyer sorted and on speed dial BEFORE you go any further - if not allow around $75,000 minimum lawyer fees PLUS for each shot fired.


Four Basic Truths of Violent Assault; They will happen closer, faster, more suddenly and with more power than most people believe.

Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue (2).doc

It all depends on the threat and situation, someone throwing a punch at you would not justify lethal force and most people would not shoot. If someone wearing a balaclava and armed was knocking down your door with a sledge hammer intent on killing you , something that happened here regularly, i bet most people would have no hesitation shooting to defend themselves.
User avatar
Chuck
Posts: 23988
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:23 am
Location: Planet Earth - Mainly
Contact:

Re: Israel: Giving its people a chance.

#82 Post by Chuck »

So, if a 9mm dumps all its energy in the body you feel its not enough to be lethal ?
Its nothing to do with dumping energy regards handgun ammo, its about what it damages when it puts a hole in you. You feel the energy in the recoil when you shoot the handgun, hardly enough to do much damage.
It's about (a) the effect on the bad person when they feels being hit - if they do feel it.....and (b) failing that and the attack continues because he's serious about hurting you (or fat /well padded, you missed, he's wearing body armour or you hit is cell phone etc etc) how long will it take till a follow up body shot or shots provides enough blood loss from the brain to stop the person? At that point you need to consider "switching off the hard drive" by placing a head shot.

A single 9mm bullet on its own may or may not be fatal - that is NOT the issue, you have no idea what it will do when it hits. It could hit a bone and boune any road etc ect .

It's about stopping the threat NOT killing someone. It may be that your first shot (any calibre) is aimed right at the head for any number of reasons, certainly the standard response to a life theatening attack is two shots centre mass in quick succession ...then take it from there.

Forget the tight group nonsense, the whole idea is two open up two trauma wounds / drain blood from the brain ASAP...in that respect the bigger the hole(s) the better.


ordnance
True i read the story, it can hardly be argued it was the energy dump of the .22 that killed the officer it was the bullet hitting him in the heart.
:good: Yep, perfect example of shot placement. A .22 sub to the head won't do you much good either.
Political Correctness is the language of lies, written by the corrupt , spoken by the inept!
User avatar
Chuck
Posts: 23988
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:23 am
Location: Planet Earth - Mainly
Contact:

Re: Israel: Giving its people a chance.

#83 Post by Chuck »

If someone wearing a balaclava and armed was knocking down your door with a sledge hammer intent on killing you , something that happened here regularly, i bet most people would have no hesitation shooting to defend themselves.
You would think so. Amazing how many shoot and MISS.....back to what was said earlier, "can you shoot, would you shoot". Of course "shooting to KILL" is NO!

I get a round up of armed encounter stories every month - amazing how any people unload multiple shots on a baddie and MISS - some score hits with small calibres and then the baddie is found in hospital or dead in the street elsewhere.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGDVYasnGBM
Political Correctness is the language of lies, written by the corrupt , spoken by the inept!
breacher

Re: Israel: Giving its people a chance.

#84 Post by breacher »

Well, we have moved from the "stopping power" to the "would you shoot ?" argument.

Another thing forgotten by us "good guys" ie lawful gun owners is.....................

When that split second incident happens, the bad guy usually initiates it so he has the element of surprise. In fact it might even be his first shot that alerts the good guy to the threat. The good guy defending himself is playing catch up.

More importantly, good guys have a subconscious grasp of right and wrong / legal vs illegal. The bad guy does not give a fcuk. The good guy will waste precious milliseconds considering the rights and wrongs - the bad guy will not and thus is milliseconds ahead of the curve.

Many good guys will even "waste" precious milliseconds considering backstop / collateral damage. The bad guy will not.

Where all things are equal in terms of how proficient the good guy and the bad guy is in shooting ability, the bad guys element of surprise and mindset puts him at an advantage.

Thats before we even consider medication that will assist the bad guy in being able to remain in the fight when he has a wound that will incapacitate the unmedicated good guy.
ordnance
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:00 pm
Location: N. Ireland. UK.
Contact:

Re: Israel: Giving its people a chance.

#85 Post by ordnance »

Forget the tight group nonsense, the whole idea is two open up two trauma wounds / drain blood from the brain ASAP...in that respect the bigger the hole(s) the better
Yes for that bigger is better, but there is more to choosing ammo than size. The 7.62 mm better at stopping people than the 5.56 mm. But it can be argued that the 5.56 is more effective. The firearm can be made lighter less recoil, you can load and carry more ammo, its easier to train recruits to shoot accurately and quicker follow up shots. Its about the best all round that's why the 9mm is still the most popular hand gun round among police civilians and armies. The .45 is only really popular in America and even there is only really among civilian shooters, having said that i do own one for its historical interest.
Last edited by ordnance on Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ordnance
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:00 pm
Location: N. Ireland. UK.
Contact:

Re: Israel: Giving its people a chance.

#86 Post by ordnance »

You would think so. Amazing how many shoot and MISS.....back to what was said earlier, "can you shoot, would you shoot". Of course "shooting to KILL" is NO!
You would be looking to stop the threat, if they are dead or alive after the encounter is irrelevant. In the case i described a shotgun with the right load would be much more effective.
breacher

Re: Israel: Giving its people a chance.

#87 Post by breacher »

[quoteThe 7.62 mm is more effective at stopping people than the 5.56 mm. But it can be argued that the 5.56 is more effective. The firearm can be made lighter less recoil, you can load and carry more ammo, its easier to train recruits to shoot accurately and quicker follow up shots.[/quote]

Apples and oranges. If you are assessing which has the best "stopping power" then thats about ONE projectile vs another. Sure if you can carry twice as much ammo, halve the recoil and thus double tap, its all fine and dandy but the 7.62 has more stopping power than the 5.56 as a projectile in itself.

You can carry 10 .22 rds for the same weight as one centrefire round. And rattle them off very fast. That does not make them better at "stopping power".

Agree re the shotgun - 00 buck is 9 x pistol cal balls hitting the body, not passing through and effectively transferring energy.
Last edited by breacher on Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Outsider

Re: Israel: Giving its people a chance.

#88 Post by Outsider »

What this all says to me is dump the pistol, if you live in a nation that allows you to legitimately own firearms for the purpose of self-defence, you'd be better off with a short shotgun and some SG in the tube.
breacher

Re: Israel: Giving its people a chance.

#89 Post by breacher »

Outsider wrote:What this all says to me is dump the pistol, if you live in a nation that allows you to legitimately own firearms for the purpose of self-defence, you'd be better off with a short shotgun and some SG in the tube.
For certain applications - yes indeed. Self defence from a vehicle - shotgun. Self defence in your home - shot gun. Walkabout - pistol is better concealed in day to day conditions.

Funnily enough - the Hollywood image of the cowboy and the drop leg holster was totally made up !! The short barreled shotgun was far more prevalent along with the carbine.
Last edited by breacher on Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ordnance
Posts: 1280
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:00 pm
Location: N. Ireland. UK.
Contact:

Re: Israel: Giving its people a chance.

#90 Post by ordnance »

You can carry 10 .22 rds for the same weight as one centrefire round. And rattle them off very fast. That does not make them better at "stopping power".
You can't compare centerfire ammo with .22 rim fire.
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests