Israel: Giving its people a chance.

[ordnance]

So, if a 9mm dumps all its energy in the body you feel its not enough to be lethal ?

Its nothing to do with dumping energy regards handgun ammo, its about what it damages when it puts a hole in you. You feel the energy in the recoil when you shoot the handgun, hardly enough to do much damage.

every object has an equal and opposite reaction

Energy dump is not a myth, that's why solid or expanding slug is so effective. In fact that's why slower moving but heavier projectiles and expanding ammo works so well. And don't forget that good old .357 magnum, VERY efficient - that's why police used it for ages

It boils down to who do you believe experts in the field of ammo and ballistics FBI for example or some peoples views on the internet. You are wrong about the bigger slower bullet being more effective regards energy dump, the only benefit is a larger hole. But you lose mag cap, less recoil, easer follow up shots, easer training of people to accurately etc.

[breacher]

So, 9mm is not lethal in your opinion ?

[joe]

There real life case in the USA in 1992 a copper got into a fight with a suspect on a highway at night
The fight ended up rolling around in floor copper pulls out his 357 magnum with JHPs and dumps a whole cylinder to the blokes torso. Copper walks to his car and radios for backup at that point the shot bloke sits up (he has taken 6 shots of 357 magnum ) and pull out a .22lr pocket pistol and fires one round into the side of the copper the bullet dropped him dead right there ! I will try find the YouTube documentary on it
the bloke lived and is doing whole life

[ordnance]

So, 9mm is not lethal in your opinion ?

The 9mm round is the most tried and tested handgun ammo in history, it is used by police forces and armies world wide, so i would say its very effective. Its popularity speaks for itself.

[breacher]

So, 9mm is not lethal in your opinion ?

The 9mm round is the most tried and tested handgun ammo in history, it is used by police forces and armies world wide, so i would say its very effective. Its popularity speaks for itself.

You have me confused now. A minute ago you quoted 9mm in ft/lbs and said it was not enough ?


Quote:
So, if a 9mm dumps all its energy in the body you feel its not enough to be lethal ?
Its nothing to do with dumping energy regards handgun ammo, its about what it damages when it puts a hole in you. You feel the energy in the recoil when you shoot the handgun, hardly enough to do much damage.

[Chuck]

Breacher:

One thing that a lot of the "let me carry for self defence" guys forget is the fact that its easy to shoot paper targets. Not everybody is capable of taking human life. Some do it without a second thought. Some will hesitate before doing it - depending on the proximity of the threat, this hesitation may or may not be an issue. Some just cannot do it.

Hell, I have met some target shooters who became a bundle of nerves when offered a deer to shoot.

And all of this is before you take into account andrenalin and stress of a sitation that you are not used to encountering.

You will never know for sure until you actually find yourself in the situation.

Good post!

If you have to think whether you should shoot or not then you probably should not. However, there's more to carrying than many people are aware of.

if you take a PROPER defensive firearms course, NOT a CLASS then what breacher says is actually part of that course. There are a LOT of considerations to take into account and you do need to ask yourself some deep questions like:

Am I prepared to shoot a man, a woman, a youth, a child even?? How about a work colleague you hav eknown for ages. Then of course there's the aftermath: legals, employer response, religious issues, family and friends - how will they see you now that you hav etaken a life. Let's face it, the liberals will hate you for it, to them you are just like the guy who tried to hurt you....maybe your freinds, employer etc will feel the same.

Next there's the possibility of a civil lawsuit from the family of "deceased good guy" or the attacker himself who was just sharpening his pencil when you "happened upon him standing around the corner and gave him a fright".

Then of course there's the emotional issues: guilt, self doubt, elation, PTSD even?

The whole carry issue is more than just having a gun. You have legal and moral obligations fire higher than any police officer has because you do NOT have a badge of authority like a police officer has.

You go to trial then maybe your jury are all mebers of some anti gun crowd..you have all seen how the media distorts.

Back to ammo - we get asked, what's the "best ammo" etc etc..well home loads and such are out so the simple answer is "what do the police use"? In the USA if you are using what the local PD are using you have a much better chance of a clean outcome both in the fight and the legals afterwards. Yes you can look at BP, flintlocks, weird calibres etc etc etc - then look at how a court of law will view that choice.

Of course every state is different and someone will know someone etc etc - the bottom line is if you carry a gun, get insurance, get your lawyer sorted and on speed dial BEFORE you go any further - if not allow around $75,000 minimum lawyer fees PLUS for each shot fired.


Four Basic Truths of Violent Assault; They will happen closer, faster, more suddenly and with more power than most people believe.

Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue (2).doc

(173.5 KiB) Downloaded 50 times

[ordnance]

There real life case in the USA in 1992 a copper got into a fight with a suspect on a highway at night
The fight ended up rolling around in floor copper pulls out his 357 magnum with JHPs and dumps a whole cylinder to the blokes torso. Copper walks to his car and radios for backup at that point the shot bloke sits up (he has taken 6 shots of 357 magnum ) and pull out a .22lr pocket pistol and fires one round into the side of the copper the bullet dropped him dead right there ! I will try find the YouTube documentary on it

True i read the story, it can hardly be argued it was the energy dump of the .22 that killed the officer it was the bullet hitting him in the heart.

[ordnance]

So, 9mm is not lethal in your opinion ?

The 9mm round is the most tried and tested handgun ammo in history, it is used by police forces and armies world wide, so i would say its very effective. Its popularity speaks for itself.

You have me confused now. A minute ago you quoted 9mm in ft/lbs and said it was not enough ?


Quote:
So, if a 9mm dumps all its energy in the body you feel its not enough to be lethal ?
Its nothing to do with dumping energy regards handgun ammo, its about what it damages when it puts a hole in you. You feel the energy in the recoil when you shoot the handgun, hardly enough to do much damage.

No i said it was the hole the bullet makes in the human body that does the damage that applies to any handgun ammo. Penetration is the most important thing without that you have nothing, the 9mm has more than enough energy for the penetration required.

[breacher]

There real life case in the USA in 1992 a copper got into a fight with a suspect on a highway at night
The fight ended up rolling around in floor copper pulls out his 357 magnum with JHPs and dumps a whole cylinder to the blokes torso. Copper walks to his car and radios for backup at that point the shot bloke sits up (he has taken 6 shots of 357 magnum ) and pull out a .22lr pocket pistol and fires one round into the side of the copper the bullet dropped him dead right there ! I will try find the YouTube documentary on it

True i read the story, it can hardly be argued it was the energy dump of the .22 that killed the officer it was the bullet hitting him in the heart.

Yes but we are talking "stopping power" generally - not "best stopping power calibre if you hit the heart".

Now, as you say, the .22 may not have been lethal if it had not hit the heart.

What about 9mm FMJ if it had not hit a major organ ? What about 9mm expanding in the same spot ?

[breacher]

Quote:
So, if a 9mm dumps all its energy in the body you feel its not enough to be lethal ?
Its nothing to do with dumping energy regards handgun ammo, its about what it damages when it puts a hole in you. You feel the energy in the recoil when you shoot the handgun, hardly enough to do much damage.[/quote] No i said it was the hole the bullet makes in the human body that does the damage that applies to any handgun ammo. Penetration is the most important thing without that you have nothing, the 9mm has more than enough energy for the penetration required.[/quote]

Which brings us back to my argument that its best that the bullet ( 9mm in this example ) in the worst case scenario of NOT hitting major organs, does not come out the other side but expends its energy halfway through.

Or to sum it up - a bullet that penetrates and hits a major organ has "stopping power" - a bullet that stops halfway through but missing organs, transferring its energy ( even if low ) to said body has more stopping power than a FMJ hitting the same spot.