UK Ammo Provisions

[Browning_grrl]

OK, I've been trying to "do my homework" on this, and honestly, notwithstanding my legal background, having read the Act and the "Guide" to its interpretation and application, I cannot, for the life of me, make head-nor-tail out of the ammunition laws. I have not tried to read the Regulations pursuant to the Act, which probably contain the information I'm seeking, but I'm getting a headache.......

I'm most probably overlooking something perfectly obvious... but, a little help, please??

With centerfire rifle ammo, what amounts of which is permitted? How is it permitted? i.e. is it part of the Firearm Licence, or some separate 'certificate' ?

If there are limits on the amount of ammo purchased, is the expenditure of that ammo tracked in some way, before you can re-purchase?

How does reloaded brass figure into all that? If you re-use your brass, is there some tracking mechanism as to how much you reload, and whether or not the brass is, for example, re-sized or necked down so that the reloads are not the same ammo as the original ones?

Finally, when you buy ammo, is there some kind of national reporting mechanism that records those purchases? And, if so, what if (for example) you go on holiday and happen to see some good prices and just bring some back with you? How is that kept track of? And, in another real-life example, what is the process if a 'mate' at your Range has a couple of boxes of ammo which it turns out her gun really dislikes & she gives them to you? Is that somehow tracked as well?

Thanks for your patience... inquiring minds want to know these things....... :)

[saddler]

OK, I've been trying to "do my homework" on this, and honestly, notwithstanding my legal background, having read the Act and the "Guide" to its interpretation and application, I cannot, for the life of me, make head-nor-tail out of the ammunition laws. I have not tried to read the Regulations pursuant to the Act, which probably contain the information I'm seeking, but I'm getting a headache.......

I'm most probably overlooking something perfectly obvious... but, a little help, please??

With centerfire rifle ammo, what amounts of which is permitted? How is it permitted? i.e. is it part of the Firearm Licence, or some separate 'certificate' ?
Totally on the whim of the local office, in some instances.
MOST target shooters have 1100 down per caliber...deer stalkers may be in the region of 200-300
Some target shooters may be able to have more per caliber depending on usage/regular competition use & pre-comp training sessions, etc.
Quantity allowed is printed as part of the users F.A.C.

If there are limits on the amount of ammo purchased, is the expenditure of that ammo tracked in some way, before you can re-purchase?
No tracking in any way - but having in excess of your allowance is a chargeable criminal offence.

How does reloaded brass figure into all that? If you re-use your brass, is there some tracking mechanism as to how much you reload, and whether or not the brass is, for example, re-sized or necked down so that the reloads are not the same ammo as the original ones?
No tracking or restrictions on brass, whether fired, new, primed or un-primed.
Loaded "blank" rounds are likewise free from restriction & can be purchased without any FAC or the like.
PRIMERS are controlled, in that for rifle/pistol use you need to prove entitlement/need of the size of primer you wish to buy (through a suitable caliber listing on your F.A.C.)

Finally, when you buy ammo, is there some kind of national reporting mechanism that records those purchases? And, if so, what if (for example) you go on holiday and happen to see some good prices and just bring some back with you? How is that kept track of? And, in another real-life example, what is the process if a 'mate' at your Range has a couple of boxes of ammo which it turns out her gun really dislikes & she gives them to you? Is that somehow tracked as well?
Sales of ammunition are written onto your F.A.C. at point of sale - that way there is a trackable record of purchase. Reloads are not recorded.
Normal shotgun ammo is not subject to the same restriction - you just need to show the S.G.C. at time of purchase if from an R.F.D.
Sales of shotgun ammo are not recorded. It can also be owned by anyone, irrespective of having a S.G.C. or not

...and to add to the logic:
FMJ bullets are not controlled.
Pure lead bullets are not controlled.
Open tip match bullets are not controlled.
Soft point bullets ARE controlled & in their un-loaded state (not yet in a case) they ARE counted as being a "live round" as part of your authorised qty. allowance (though, if the gun they are to be used in has a tubular magazine then they are NOT controlled...)
Hollow point/open tip hunting bullets (of the NON-MATCH type) = same as soft points...controlled & counted.
Polymer Tip bullets - i.e. A-MAX = ok, buy what you want & no restriction. V-MAX = controlled & counted.

The bullets that are ok to buy can be purchased mail order & sent to your home address.
Controlled bullets can only be sold through an R.F.D. & cannot be sent to your home address by mail, BUT - they CAN be bought mail order from abroad & sent direct to your home address!! (though IF you don't have permission for them on your F.A.C. = criminal offence)

Make sense?
UK gun laws - logic in action, not!

And you'd maybe NOT be surprised to learn that some of the police admin. staff have a very basic working knowledge of the above.

[Browning_grrl]

Caramba!! I'll just go away now and try and get all that into my head (which feels like it might explode shortly.... ). Thank you for the info. :)

[zanes]

Soft point bullets ARE controlled & in their un-loaded state (not yet in a case) they ARE counted as being a "live round" as part of your authorised qty. allowance (though, if the gun they are to be used in has a tubular magazine then they are NOT controlled...)

The bit in italics intrigued me- not heard that before. Sounds like you're saying I could buy/reload JHP rounds for my 94AE?

I've not seen it in the link in my signature either, don't suppose you know which act/paragraph of the guidance that is in?

[saddler]

Soft point bullets ARE controlled & in their un-loaded state (not yet in a case) they ARE counted as being a "live round" as part of your authorised qty. allowance (though, if the gun they are to be used in has a tubular magazine then they are NOT controlled...)

The bit in italics intrigued me- not heard that before. Sounds like you're saying I could buy/reload JHP rounds for my 94AE?

I've not seen it in the link in my signature either, don't suppose you know which act/paragraph of the guidance that is in?

Not 100% sure if JHPs sre covered, but JSP definitely are.
The 2002 Guidance document covers it......though it seems to get overlooked (similar to the info. in my post last week on shotgun primers)

see: Para 3.16 of the 2002 Home Office Guidance to Police

[Blackstuff]

Its 3.21 in the 2015 Guidance.

I don't agree with the intepretation though (and not just because it makes you cool to disagree with Saddler ). The wording is;

"Category (xv) refers to ammunition incorporating a projectile that is designed or adapted to expand in a controlled manner. It is the kind of ammunition used in deerstalking and vermin control because it is more likely than non-expanding ammunition to ensure a quick and humane kill. Semi-jacketed soft point and hollow point are typical forms of expanding ammunition, but care must be taken to distinguish between match target hollow point ammunition, which has a tiny hole at the front for manufacturing purposes, and true hollow point. Match hollow point rounds which are not designed to expand upon impact, such as the Sierra Match King and the Hornady A-Max, are not prohibited. Flat-nosed bullets, which are designed to prevent a magazine explosion caused, by a pointed bullet resting on the primer of the cartridge ahead of it when the ammunition is used in a tubular magazine are also not prohibited. All bullets will distort on impact, but only those which were designed or adapted to do so in a predictable manner fit this category."

Its doesn't mention the make up of the bullet (JSP, JHP etc), just that flat nosed bullets aren't covered by the expanding bullet prohibition. But i rather fancy they were referring to something like 3, 4 & 5 in this picture (or similar in all lead);



And if you were caught with something like this below, you'd be in the do-do, whether you were putting it in a tube mag gun or not;

[zanes]

Yes, blackstuff's interpretation would be the way I read it too- a flat nosed bullet designed to expand would still fall foul of category (XV). The last sentence of paragraph 3.21 quoted above seals that (hence why A-Max are S1, V-Max are S5).

My suspicion is that it's like the reference to match BTHPs; intended to clarify a potential point (!) of confusion/"over enthusiasm" from certain FLAs.

[saddler]

I don't know of ANY "Flat-nosed bullets...designed to prevent a magazine explosion".
There is the new polymer/rubber tipped bullets that WERE so designed to be used in tube magazines, but "Flat-nosed bullets"?

A wide flat meplat has more reasons to exist than tube magazines - and - as far as I can recall, ALL the Keith designs of that profile/style were designed to be used primarily in revolvers.

What was the wording in the 2002 Guidance notes?
Very different from the more recent one?

[Blackstuff]

More or less identical except A-max have been included in the update and the guidance references a different category number;

"3.16 Category (xiv) refers to ammunition incorporating a projectile that is designed or adapted to expand in a controlled manner. It is the kind of ammunition used in deerstalking and vermin control because it is more likely than non-expanding ammunition to ensure a quick, clean kill. Semi-jacketed soft point and hollow point are typical forms of expanding ammunition, but care must be taken to distinguish between match target hollow point ammunition, which has a tiny hole at the front for manufacturing purposes, and true hollow point. Match hollow point rounds, such as the Sierra Match King, are not prohibited, neither are flat-nosed bullets designed to be used in tubular magazines. This is to prevent magazine explosions caused by a pointed bullet resting on the primer of the cartridge ahead of it. All bullets will distort on impact, but only those which were designed or adapted to do so in a predictable manner fit this category."

[Sim G]

If they weren't referring to expanding ammunition and bullets, there would be no need to mention it as flat point FMJ and the likes are not controlled. Roger Francis had a letter years ago from the Home Office that confirmed what was believed was intended in the 2002 guidance, namely that expanding bullets with a flat meplat, when used in a lever gun, fall into s1. In my cabinet I have JSP ammunition in .30-30, .32 Win Spl, .32-20, .357 mag and .44 mag. In by reloading cupboard, I have bullets as well. My FEO has seen them and my RFD sells them to me. I am more than confident that in the circumstances, s1 applies.