Range safety certificate

[HeatherW762]

The agreement was reached with the MoD in 2008 and cards came in for start 2009.

My email is memsec@nra.org.uk Dromia.

Heather

[dromia]

Copy of letter sent.

[barney57]

Funny how a simple question ends up in an argument??

Makes you think twice about asking a question!!

[Dangermouse]

Oh no it does not...

[dromia]

Just found the paperwork for the course and it was the "NRA Probationary Training Scheme-Instructors course".

The weekend was based on the NRA Probationary training course which upon completion entitled members to a safe shooters certificate.

The course has a practical work book for students with back up material, each unit of the course having to be signed of by a competent person i.e. aqualified instructor. There is also a power point presentation covering the theoretical side of the course.

There were people from all over the country at the course seeking to qualify in instructing and signing off new shooters as fit to hold a Safe shooting certificate.

If this is no longer a requirement or the instructors qualification I recieved of no value any more it would have been good of the NRA to tell us, especially as my club paid for me and another member to attend at no little cost to our club. Course fees, travel to Bisley, accommodation and expenses.

[IainWR]

Dromia

I'm sorry but you seem to me to have a misunderstanding of how this all works. There are two completely separate externally-imposed supervision schemes in shooting at targets with rifles.

Firstly, there is the Probationers course. This is the package of instruction required under the Firearms Acts to be delivered to any probationary member of a Home Office approved club before they are granted full membership (there are exemptions for people already qualified / experienced in a variety of ways - as an aside it is these exemptions that make the application form for NRA membership complicated). Until they are granted full membership they cannot make unsupervised use of the exemption to the Firearms Acts that allows HO approved club members to possess firearms and ammunition without a FAC for the purpose of target shooting. The NRA, along with one or two other national organisations, provides a recognised syllabus for a probationers course. The course you went on (if I have understood correctly) is intended to teach you how to deliver this syllabus.

Secondly, there is the Shooter Certification card. This is an administrative measure designed to provide the Ministry of Defence with a auditable means of confirming that a civilian using their ranges is competent. It has nothing to do with the Firearms Acts. It is available through a scheme administered by the NRA. It was an MoD requirement that the Chairman of the Club sign the Certificate, this requirement being (as Heather has said) to maintain the integrity of the audit trail. The process by which the Chairman determines whether an individual is competent is entirely up to the Chairman. My club is small enough that the Chairman shoots regularly with most of the the members and as far as I know he relies on informal personal observation. The NRA offers no advice, standards or training on the making of this assessment. The only privelige associated with the SCC is that it permits a club member to shoot the classes of firearms for which he is certified on MoD ranges without one-on-one supervision.

Note that the two qualifications are entirely independent. Having one does not guarantee being granted the other. Each is independently neccessary for the exercise of the associated priveliges. Not having one does not stop you exercising the priveliges of the other.

Having said that, I'm disappointed that you had an unsatisfactory experience with an NRA training course. The Shooting Committee has decided, over the last two meetings, to take a more active interest in the NRA's training programme and has set up a Training sub-committee. If you would like to PM me your concerns, I will pass them on to the Chairman of that sub-committee.

yours

Iain
Vice-chairman NRA Shooting Committee

[Alpha1]

Another commitee wow that will make all the difference.

[karen]

Another commitee wow that will make all the difference.

Better than sitting back and doing nothing!

[Mike357]

This is an interesting debate! From what I have observed to date, there are clearly failings within the NRA (historical?) and it is too focused in the south of England (not even UK).

However, and I might be wrong, from those close to the NRA who post on here, there seems to be a willingness to listen and to try and bring change. It is desperatley needed, no doubt about that! Change doesn't happen overnight and certainly will take sometime to filter through the NRA which is run in a colonial fashion. People need to force change so join the NRA, vote for change!

Change will not come quickly but the best thing the NRA can do is at least put down on paper how they see change taking place and what they want to implement. My local authority (council) have a 30 year published plan for the redevelopment of Dundee's waterfront. This was published without any funding being in place and attracted the commissioning of a branch of the V&A Mueseum in Dundee. It is now progressing a a rapid pace as funding is secured for each phase.

So, NRA, take on board all the critiscism, discuss it, and publish your proposals and a timeline. It will either drive thinking and change or it will fail but at least you tried!

[dromia]

Dromia

I'm sorry but you seem to me to have a misunderstanding of how this all works. There are two completely separate externally-imposed supervision schemes in shooting at targets with rifles.

Firstly, there is the Probationers course. This is the package of instruction required under the Firearms Acts to be delivered to any probationary member of a Home Office approved club before they are granted full membership (there are exemptions for people already qualified / experienced in a variety of ways - as an aside it is these exemptions that make the application form for NRA membership complicated). Until they are granted full membership they cannot make unsupervised use of the exemption to the Firearms Acts that allows HO approved club members to possess firearms and ammunition without a FAC for the purpose of target shooting. The NRA, along with one or two other national organisations, provides a recognised syllabus for a probationers course. The course you went on (if I have understood correctly) is intended to teach you how to deliver this syllabus.

Secondly, there is the Shooter Certification card. This is an administrative measure designed to provide the Ministry of Defence with a auditable means of confirming that a civilian using their ranges is competent. It has nothing to do with the Firearms Acts. It is available through a scheme administered by the NRA. It was an MoD requirement that the Chairman of the Club sign the Certificate, this requirement being (as Heather has said) to maintain the integrity of the audit trail. The process by which the Chairman determines whether an individual is competent is entirely up to the Chairman. My club is small enough that the Chairman shoots regularly with most of the the members and as far as I know he relies on informal personal observation. The NRA offers no advice, standards or training on the making of this assessment. The only privelige associated with the SCC is that it permits a club member to shoot the classes of firearms for which he is certified on MoD ranges without one-on-one supervision.

Note that the two qualifications are entirely independent. Having one does not guarantee being granted the other. Each is independently neccessary for the exercise of the associated priveliges. Not having one does not stop you exercising the priveliges of the other.

Having said that, I'm disappointed that you had an unsatisfactory experience with an NRA training course. The Shooting Committee has decided, over the last two meetings, to take a more active interest in the NRA's training programme and has set up a Training sub-committee. If you would like to PM me your concerns, I will pass them on to the Chairman of that sub-committee.

yours

Iain
Vice-chairman NRA Shooting Committee

Sorry I don't have misunderstanding of how works now as didn't know how it works 'till your post.

What I do know is that I went on the aforementioned course, which was awful, it was all based around the NRA probationers course, I have the book and paperwork etc and I came out with a NRA instuctors qualification.

My question is what course did I attend as you say it doesn't exist and how relevant is the qualification I got now.

Regardless of the detail it just looks like another NRA shambles. My club paid good money to send people on a course that the NRA now doesn't seem to recognise. If things ahve changed and moved on then wouldn't seem it sensible to communicate that to the instructors so as to keep them up date with developments. Then again my experience is that NRA databases are not a strong point for the organisation.

I am quiet happy for my letter to be shared within the NRA, it was written in good faith in the spirit of trying to help and improve things. Heather has a copy and if you send me your email address I will send you one. Those were the days when I still believed that the NRA had a willingness to become a national body representing shooters but my experiences, including this confusion over NRA training, over the past few months has convinced me that the NRA has reverted to type and is just Bisley shooting club.

I read your words and I'm sure that your intentions in your role are honourable and genuine, but to be frank I've heard it all before. Until the words translate into action then I will no longer support the NRA. At the last regional meeting it was clear from Glynn Alger that the regions are on their own, resources will continue to be Bisley based and the strategy is still Bisley centric and the refernces to regional development vague and not developed.

I have no problem with that but at least be honest about it and come out and admit that the NRA is about Bisley and its only national role is as a governing body for target rifle.