Expired FAC, "it'll be fine, go shoot" say police

[Blackstuff]

'Face value' isn't worth much in court though is it

[Sim G]

That's fair enough Mark, but, if "face value" was followed up by an email.... And then in the unlikely event of something was to go to court, then is that FEO going to perjure themselves...?

Reckon we could convince ACPO to send a roll of tin foil out with every renewal reminder?

[saddler]

'Face value' isn't worth much in court though is it

I disagree

It has the potential to be worth the mandatory 5-years per offence.

As has been said many times, the police are there to implement the written laws of the land; not make up new ones to suit their lack of administrative ability

ACPO - a CHARITY that has no official standing, just acts as an advisory body: yet police officials attending ACPO events make claims to do so from public coffers. MP's expenses scandal ring a bell?

[Gaz]

That's fair enough Mark, but, if "face value" was followed up by an email.... And then in the unlikely event of something was to go to court, then is that FEO going to perjure themselves...?

Reckon we could convince ACPO to send a roll of tin foil out with every renewal reminder?

Oh yeah?

“They are absolutely wrong. They have no business saying this. If they cannot issue your certificate on time, they should issue a Section 7 Permit, giving you temporary authority to hold the guns until your certificate arrives.

“Without this you are committing a criminal offence. If they refuse to issue a Section 7, contact BASC immediately,” he said, and cited a case where someone had been arrested and charged under exactly these circumstances.

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/shooting/7- ... cate-16054

That is why anything not in writing from a police force should be ignored. If they can do something bad to you as a certificate holder, sooner or later they will do it if you leave yourself open.

[Sim G]

In all honesty, Gaz, I'm not that paranoid. In the 5 year life of a certificate, I probably only have the physical document in my possession for two out of those five! It spends the rest of the time being varied in one form or another! At renewal, I probably didn't see a valid certificate for months. Did it change the way I conducted my sport? I was stocked up before renewal with primers and rimfire and when out with the guns, had ID, my renewal notification and a copy of my FAC and SGC. My shooting mates did and do the same.

So for the one horror story you've quoted, there's a counter. And who cited that case? What's the full circs? Because again, how CPS authorised a charge on the basics we're discussing, there has to more than possession of guns with an expired certificate in the renewal process....

[Ian]

But Sim G, a valid certificate exists for those five years signed by you and the Chief of police.

The case we are discussing is when no such certificate exists at all. No certificate, an absolute offence, can easily lead to dire problems.

[Sim G]

Just read the link you posted....

Strange that. The barrister giving the interview cites all sorts of details from all sorts of specific cases, but then gives no detail, especially when the alledged circumstances have caused such concern to so many over the last few years, when it comes to someone being arrested and charged whilst certificates are being renewed....

Nah, I don't believe that one..

[Sim G]

But Sim G, a valid certificate exists for those five years signed by you and the Chief of police.

The case we are discussing is when no such certificate exists at all. No certificate, an absolute offence, can easily lead to dire problems.

At renewal, I didn't have one. I was informed that there were no issues with the renewal and that the additional variations would be added. So absolutely no need to believe my certificate would be refused. The police told me it would take time to process. So where's the real difference in that or when during a variation. The "authority" ostensibly still exists in both circumstances. As I said, I'm not that paranoid.

[Gaz]

But Sim G, a valid certificate exists for those five years signed by you and the Chief of police.

The case we are discussing is when no such certificate exists at all. No certificate, an absolute offence, can easily lead to dire problems.

This is the point I'm making, Sim. You're in illegal possession from the day your certificate expires unless you're covered by a section 7 permit. That's an automatic prison sentence measured in years. During a variation is different - the certificate still exists and is still valid as per its expiry date, they're just changing what's on it.

I still maintain it's much safer to get a section 7 permit and know that you're legal, rather than trust the goodwill of faceless bureaucrats who may have a certain set of boxes to tick or targets to reach one day.

You make a good point on that case though. I'll see if I can get hold of Peter Glenser and ask him more about that one.

[ovenpaa]

Does anyone know why the Firearms Licensing are so reluctant to issue a Section 7, is it because it is a part measure of their operational efficiency?