New British Army Rifle?

[toffe wrapper]

DL
I've driven both trucks & L85. Driving either has it's ups and downs.
I don't drive either now.

Ubique

[ordnance]

I think so too , but funny odd not funny amusing - amazing how so many people who have never shot an L85A1 / A2 have such a strong opinion.

Who are the people posting you know that have never shot it. ? So basically they have had to redesign and replace nearly every major component of the rifle, and some still argue its a good service rifle.

Senior army officers want the Government to scrap the service's fault-prone main assault rifle because of fears that it will cost the lives of British soldiers in battle.
The demands arose after it emerged that several SA80-A2 rifles, the latest version of the weapon that recently completed a £92 million upgrade, failed to fire during operations in Afghanistan.
One senior officer told The Telegraph: You can't improve a weapon which is basically flawed no matter how much you spend on it, and the SA80 is a flawed weapon. It's not balanced, the optical sight easily gets steamed up so it can't be used, and it can't be fired in the left-handed position.

he changes were expensive (£92m - about 145 million dollars/euros) and comprehensive, as follows:
- internal machining to clear feed and extraction paths
- new breech block and bolt
- new extractor and ejector with spring
- new recoil springs
- new firing pin
- new cocking handle
- entirely new magazine made from pressed steel
- new gas plug and cylinder
- new hammer
- new barrel extension

[fred2892]

This is funny thread.

I think so too , but funny odd not funny amusing - amazing how so many people who have never shot an L85A1 / A2 have such a strong opinion.

I've got an opinion on driving trucks, although I've never driven one, I wouldn't share those opinions on an internet forum, because A.I have no experience. B.There are people who drive trucks who have more valid experiences to share.

What!!! So you think people are posting on here about something they have only read about on the internet/ overheard in a pub/ dreamed about???? Surely not :shock:

[Laurie]

Pretty sure the JDF bought some. dont know whether they still use it.

On the subject of trigger reset, its still a huge problem. but only because the users dont clean it properly, or more importantly oil the bloody thing.

If you look at the JDF's (Jamaica for those wondering) website, its 'primary weapon' is listed as the L1A1. It also lists the L2 Sterling SMG and 9mm Browning Hi-Power pistol and L85 alongside some US weapons such as the .50BMG M2. The question there is did Jamaica buy the L85 (and L1A1s etc), or were they received as aid from HMG?

There is limited Bolivian use by a paramilitary police outfit called UTARC which was officially disbanded after its members shot at local journalists taking photos of them making an arrest. (One for Gaz!) Some say UTARC was never shut down at all but still exists under a different name. The link with the L85 came from a British Army mission to train Bolivian Special Forces, so somebody at least was impressed by the A1 .... or then again maybe no other country would sell or even donate weapons to Bolivia at that period?

HMG also gave away 5,000 examples to a friendly African country. Depending on source, this is variously reported on the Internet as Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, or Mozambique. The first two seem more likely possibilities given their historic links to the UK. I read a report in a Sunday newspaper many years ago that the combination of climate and poor user maintenance saw them trashed in short order and the recipients reverted to the African continent default the AK.

Perhaps more to the point is that the SA80 series marked the point where for the first time in more than 150 years no major Commonwealth country which in the past had actually paid real money to HMG for smallarms would now buy the primary British rifle and squad support weapon - Canada, New Zealand, Australia in particular. And, there was certainly no lack of effort by HMG, the FCO and MoD to persuade them - it really was vital to persuade somebody, anybody, to buy our new weapons system if it was to have any commercial prospects in world markets. It wasn't as if there was a lack of customers at the time as 5.56 superceded 7.62 outside of the Soviet bloc and its allies / dependants.

On the trigger oiling issue, whilst never having visited Iraq or Afghanistan and having no intention of doing so in the future (so, one shouldn't make an ill-informed comment one assumes), according to Steve Raw (retd RM Chief Armourer, author of the Collector Grade Publications tome on the rifle) and every other source on the subject, oiling the L85's workings (M16s likewise) is instant death to reliability in these theatres through gumming up with fine sand sticking to any oiled surface. So, as a mere layman it seems one is damned if one does (oil) or doesn't!

[Gundoc]

Very true about the oil issue in theatre, however in our damp climate, not oiling it leads to hideous rust

[Sixshot6]

Pretty sure the JDF bought some. dont know whether they still use it.

On the subject of trigger reset, its still a huge problem. but only because the users dont clean it properly, or more importantly oil the bloody thing.

If you look at the JDF's (Jamaica for those wondering) website, its 'primary weapon' is listed as the L1A1. It also lists the L2 Sterling SMG and 9mm Browning Hi-Power pistol and L85 alongside some US weapons such as the .50BMG M2. The question there is did Jamaica buy the L85 (and L1A1s etc), or were they received as aid from HMG?

There is limited Bolivian use by a paramilitary police outfit called UTARC which was officially disbanded after its members shot at local journalists taking photos of them making an arrest. (One for Gaz!) Some say UTARC was never shut down at all but still exists under a different name. The link with the L85 came from a British Army mission to train Bolivian Special Forces, so somebody at least was impressed by the A1 .... or then again maybe no other country would sell or even donate weapons to Bolivia at that period?

HMG also gave away 5,000 examples to a friendly African country. Depending on source, this is variously reported on the Internet as Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone, or Mozambique. The first two seem more likely possibilities given their historic links to the UK. I read a report in a Sunday newspaper many years ago that the combination of climate and poor user maintenance saw them trashed in short order and the recipients reverted to the African continent default the AK.

Perhaps more to the point is that the SA80 series marked the point where for the first time in more than 150 years no major Commonwealth country which in the past had actually paid real money to HMG for smallarms would now buy the primary British rifle and squad support weapon - Canada, New Zealand, Australia in particular. And, there was certainly no lack of effort by HMG, the FCO and MoD to persuade them - it really was vital to persuade somebody, anybody, to buy our new weapons system if it was to have any commercial prospects in world markets. It wasn't as if there was a lack of customers at the time as 5.56 superceded 7.62 outside of the Soviet bloc and its allies / dependants.

On the trigger oiling issue, whilst never having visited Iraq or Afghanistan and having no intention of doing so in the future (so, one shouldn't make an ill-informed comment one assumes), according to Steve Raw (retd RM Chief Armourer, author of the Collector Grade Publications tome on the rifle) and every other source on the subject, oiling the L85's workings (M16s likewise) is instant death to reliability in these theatres through gumming up with fine sand sticking to any oiled surface. So, as a mere layman it seems one is damned if one does (oil) or doesn't!

I believe some SA80's were sold as semi auto only guns in the US (about 500 or so) as part of a deal with a company called Golden State Arms (the deal fell through) and somebody else picked them up. Any comment on that?

[Sixshot6]

why didnt germany use the g3 rather than the g36?

or even the g33 etc for 5.56

They actually wanted to use the FN FAL (G1) in the 7.62mm era and bought a considerable number from FN in the late 50s / early 60s. The problem came in that the Germans wanted to manufacture the G1 under license and this caused a political storm in Belgium where memories of German invasion and occupation were still too fresh. When a licensing setup was rejected, the Germans went to CETME in Spain which had taken German engineers and late WW2 Third Reich designs (roller-locking delayed blowback) and worked further on them - result the G3 manufactured in-house by H&K and later to become the FAL's main (virtually only) rival for worldwide 7.62 Nato assault rifle sales.

Back in the 80s some outfit (which if I remember right ended up being convicted under the firearms acts after it was raided for having been mistakenly believed to be operating an IRA arms dump!) in Devizes used to advertise surplus unissued ex Bundeswehr G1s with walnut furniture, leather sling, cleaning kit, and three magazines for £250 in Guns Review magazine. Them were the days!

Also forgetting the G2, which was the original Armalite AR10, something to do with a deal with the Netherlands and getting cheap DAF trucks killed deal I believe.

[Laurie]

Also forgetting the G2, which was the original Armalite AR10, something to do with a deal with the Netherlands and getting cheap DAF trucks killed deal I believe. [sixshot6]

Ah .. I wondered what the G2 was. At the same rough 1980s period that you could buy really good FALs here for £250-450 somebody (likely the same west country G1 vendor as it was really big in semi-auto military rifles) would sell you a surplus Artillerie Inrichtingen AR10 for the same money as the cheapest FALs. Just before the SLR rifle ban came in, so some time over the winter of 1988/89, I saw a guy shooting one at Strensall and went and had a rubberneck and natter. Very impressive, mint condition. He offered me the chance to have a few shots and I turned him down - kicked myself ever since. I presume they were ex Portuguese forces as they were only ever bought by Portugal and Sudan. We'd only got them here as they fell foul of the US BAFT&E rules on anything actually designed to fire full-auto being a 'machinegun' even if the example has always been semi-auto so they couldn't be legally imported or easily anyway into the USA.

[meles meles]

Well oomans, we have been into battle with the L85 A2 and it was the best option then available. The only thing that came close were Czech Z58s. US Marines were offering to swap two M4s for one A2 ! That said, it's past its sell-by date: it needs more punch hence the earlier suggestion to reincarnate the EM2. Oh, and in a dusty climate like Ganniland, the answer is oil by the bucket ! No oil, bad, bucket of oil, GOOD !

[Laurie]

I believe some SA80's were sold as semi auto only guns in the US (about 500 or so) as part of a deal with a company called Golden State Arms (the deal fell through) and somebody else picked them up. Any comment on that? [Sixshot6]

No, never heard of those. There was a dealer in Co. Durham who made a big thing of having S1 SA80s for sale just before Hungerford and the ban. It was said they'd been sourced in Canada, but it was said (gossiped) that they were Cadet models rebuilt as semi-autos.

Where I did see L85s turn up to my great surprise was in a episode of the shortlived American Sc-Fi series 'Firefly' (later adapted to make the feature film 'Serenity'). Firefly was a Fox TV series that only got one run back in 2003 and was a clever cut and paste of the Wild West genre into some future period with a wandering mercenary spaceship crew living on the edge of the law. Despite being a few hundred years in the future, the crew were mostly armed with 20th century American weapons (!!)

In this episode, all I can remember of it was a futuristic train running at vast speed over a desert plain and our hero meeting a squad of Alliance troops or police (the enemy) on it dressed a bit like Star Wars Imperial troopers and most implausibly armed with L85s (but not looking out of place oddly enough).

So, maybe the missing US L85s went to Hollywood, or then again maybe the TV people used airsoft copies. Who can tell?