What's the difference between Downloading and Hand loading.

[dromia]

I have read it, that is how I know it is a bad document.

We could spend hours going through its faults, errors, omissions and downright dangerous advice.

From my point of view it is not something that is worth correcting it is something that needs re-doing properly.

I wonder what the authors handloading credentials are?

[Mattnall]

If the minimum load given in a reloading manual was definitive then all the manuals would have the same minimum load (and maximum load for that matter).

The loadings given are only max and min loadings tested by whomever did the testing and that they can put their name to as being safe (and then only repeatable when shot in their firearm, reloaded on their machine and shot in exactly the same conditions as the test rounds).

If you subsequently publish a recipe you have tested which goes below this 'minimum' then there is suddenly a new minimum loading for that cartridge.

[Dougan]

I have read it, that is how I know it is a bad document.

We could spend hours going through its faults, errors, omissions and downright dangerous advice.

From my point of view it is not something that is worth correcting it is something that needs re-doing properly.

I wonder what the authors handloading credentials are?

It's alright for you experts; I'm sure you can find various technical errors in the document - However some beginners and 'intermediates' need some simple guidance...until I started dabbling with cast boolits I didn't fully understand the relevance of burn rates and such; I just knew not to exceed the max or go below the minimum...

...for the average handloader, is the advice (quoted from the CoP) below really so bad?

19 Take extra care when downloading ammunition.
a) Full-bore rifles are generally not designed to be shot indoors or at short range. Full-bore rifles, some centre-fire gallery rifles and some long-barrelled revolvers can produce muzzle velocities or muzzle energies far in excess of indoor range safety limits. Such firearms can be used safely on indoor ranges or on short-range outdoor ranges, where permitted by local regulations, only if ammunition is downloaded to reduce muzzle velocity and muzzle energy to within the limits specified in the range safety certificates.
b) Downloading should be approached with the same caution as any other form of handloading; less powder does not mean less risk. All the recommendations in the preceding clauses should be observed.
c) There are additional precautions that need to be observed when downloading. Only attempt to download ammunition for full-bore firearms if you thoroughly understand the additional precautions necessary to ensure safety.
d) Select a combination of components for which you have reliable loading data (see sub-clauses 1 b) to e)).
e) Powders required for downloading are often different to the powder required for a normal handload. For example, a typical load for .308 WIN cartridges is 45 gr of VihtaVuori N140 with a 155 g full metal jacket bullet. To reduce the muzzle velocity and muzzle energy to within the limits for a typical indoor range would require reducing the load of N140 well below the starting load specified in handloading data tables. This is dangerous (see clause 11). Instead a different powder and bullet combination can be selected. In this example, 9 gr of Hi-Skor 700X could be used with a 120 gr cast lead bullet, which will generate muzzle velocity and muzzle energy within the safety limits for a typical indoor range.
f) Very light powder loads in large cases means that there is a lot of air space left inside the cases, which creates a number of potential hazards:-
i. Powder may not ignite properly, which may cause a bullet to get stuck in the barrel. Always check to make sure that when the rifle is fired there is a bullet hole in the target. If you cannot see a bullet hole, check that the barrel is clear before firing the next shot.
ii. There is room inside the case to put a double, or even a triple charge of powder, which could cause massive excess pressure on firing. Always visually check and, preferably, weigh cases before bullet seating to ensure there are no multiple powder charges.
NOTE: cases may vary in weight quite considerably, therefore, it is preferable to weigh cases before and after loading with powder, particularly with very light loads of powder.
iii. Powder may burn faster than normal in cases that are not filled with powder, which could cause excessive pressure. Check for signs of excessive pressure when shooting.
iv. A standing pressure wave can be set up inside the case, which can cause peak pressure to rise several times above normal chamber pressure. Check for signs of excessive pressure when shooting.
g) Hang fires are more likely with download ammunition. If nothing happens when the trigger is pulled, or if only the primer fires but not the main charge, keep the firearm on aim and
Ver. 1.0 (22/03/2015)
wait at least 30 seconds before opening the bolt. If the primer has fired, check that the barrel is clear before firing the next shot.
h) If you see signs of excessive pressure, or if you get more than one hang fire, stop shooting immediately.

[Dougan]

Pretty sure every CF shooter on Melville this weekend was using downloaded ammo. So the NRA are not insured for that?

But were they?...depends how you define 'downloaded' - There are different loads for .44, .357 and .38...I use .357 cases, and there are 'full magnum loads' for this; usually with slower pistol powders, and there are 'cowboy action loads' for GRCF (that's gallery rifle center fire Alpha); usually with faster pistol powders - If you were 'downloading' by going below the minimum of a full magnum load to reduce velocity, then that would be unwise...but if you are 'downloading' by using a lesser amount of a faster powder to reduce velocity, then that's fine...

...My load is about 0.1gn above the published minimum 'cowboy action load' in the Viht manual...so not 'downloaded' in the wrong way...

[dromia]

As I said the document is so bad that we could go on forever highlighting its faults.

Firstly the whole thing is dangerous because of the "look for signs of pressure" which he described earlier, regurgitating all the old dangerous pressure sign practices like a stiff bolt.

From f onwards it is sh!te if you are using a powder of the correct burn rate, which is true for any handloading application, burn rate is key.

Small case fill and double charge is a potential problem but not exclusive to downloading.

I'd be interested in the "standing pressure wave" bit and where this came from.

Hells teeth the more often I read this garbage the angrier I get with the NSRA and the author.

[dromia]

I wonder how many rounds of "downloaded" ammunition Dr Pressure Sign has made, fired and experimented with.

[Dougan]

I think you just want to read, and take it negatively...for a start, it does say at 'f', that they are "potential hazards"...

...they are trying to explain a very complex, detailed and caveat ridden subject in as simple a way as possible for all handloaders...not those who already have in-depth knowledge.

[dromia]

Actually I was looking forward to a helpful and instructive document that would help promote the use of full bore guns in different contexts.

Instead it does its best to demonise downloading by making seem more hazardous than whatever is normal handloading.

If you are going to do something then it should be done well or not at all in my book or it should be at least accurate and knowledgeable which this isn't.

For tyros especially it is giving them false information, dangerous and poor advice, I would never point a beginner at this load of tosh it will completely start them of on the wrong foot.

Also if this is the best a "National" body can do for its members then it puts them in a bad light.

[kennyc]

Actually I was looking forward to a helpful and instructive document that would help promote the use of full bore guns in different contexts.

Instead it does its best to demonise downloading by making seem more hazardous than whatever is normal handloading.

If you are going to do something then it should be done well or not at all in my book or it should be at least accurate and knowledgeable which this isn't.

For tyros especially it is giving them false information, dangerous and poor advice, I would never point a beginner at this load of tosh it will completely start them of on the wrong foot.

Also if this is the best a "National" body can do for its members then it puts them in a bad light.

then write one for them........

[Alpha1]

Why should he. Adam consulted them they gave him a very negative reply. So he went to the NRA then set up a very workable and sensible and well managed set of procedures so that members of his local club could shoot safe reduced loads in full bore rifles on there local range. The members have been shooting these safe loads as documented in the clubs records and shot over the club chronograph for quite some time now. Why should he be bothered if the NSRA can not get it right.

I have been reloading for a while I am not a expert but Iv never had any issues with my reloaded ammunition for at least the last twenty years. If I had to go to court Id be happy in the knowledge that Adams club of which I am a member would be able to provide robust documented evidence of my load development the amount of times I have used it with out any incident. The NSRA document is a mine field in my humble opinion.