NRA: UKPSA members might be committing criminal offences

[Thorney]

I think it right to note, I am not contacting anyone directly, I will not go and email someone to ask them to attend firstly as I dont have everyones contact details it wouldnt be fair to make that contact unless i can do the same for all and secondly (and i think this is important) is that everyone who attends must wish to do so - to want to embrace a positive future rather than carp on about the past, hence I have put my email address up. Putting a gun to someones head (if you pardon the image) and saying 'attend or else' is not the way forward, I can accept that some are likely to be there kicking and screaming but they are there, if that happens we can improve this I'm sure.

Secondly (I thought I'd make this clear from the outset) I have no intention now or in the future of having any role of any kind for the NRA, UKPSA or 4Islands. I am not doing this to attain position, I am doing this to allow others to create a positive future, as has been said in the past by many - 'I'm just here to shoot' but that doesnt stop me wanting to help others help all of us.

[Demonic69]

I must be on the ignore list, 4i's not replied to any of my questions :'(

[waterford103]

It begs the question "who is Mercer actually working for " --- not the NRA it seems .

[The Event]

I must be on the ignore list, 4i's not replied to any of my questions :'(

Which is a shame as they were very good questions.

[4Islander]

Demonic, my apologies for not getting back to this sooner but it was a very busy weekend for me.
I will do my best to enlighten you.

Not really, all that is needed is for the NRA to hold the IPSC franchise, effectively removing the UKPSA executive who are responsible for expelling people & some very poor financial decisions that have wasted a lot of their members money.

Were the people expelled because they were actively going against the UKPSA's best interests?

Please define best interests ? but if you mean not promoting practical shooting within our region it becomes very hard to accuse James or the others of not doing that.
James is a 7 time British IPSC Champion, he is one of the most senior & experienced range crew they had, a very active coach & promoter of practical shooting in the UK as are the others.

I suspect the real reason James has been targeted is because he exposed the $30,000 so called "incentive" that they offered to IPSC, known to many as the bribe over Northern Ireland, had the NRA behaved in such a way I expect there would have been outrage on here & elsewhere, he also expressed concern over their lack of proper & accurate records, I believe they have a personal vendetta against him for exposing this incompetence & malpractice.

No need for the demise of any group, all could continue doing what they do which is to promote safe shooting, as Thorney says it needs someone to take away their ball & bang some heads together, IPSC could do that quite easily, simply give the franchise to the NRA & the problems go away.

So what happens to the UKPSA if they lose IPSC? How do they continue?

Have a read of the "Objects of the Association" in it you will see there reason to exist is linked to providing marksmen to be used for defence of the realm in times of need, no mention of running IPSC as an object, it says they will be affiliated to IPSC but thats a different thing, they could still be affiliated via the NRA if the region control were to switch.
there is nothing to prevent them continuing anyway, four4islands has managed perfectly well for a number of years without the IPSC franchise, they could too.

The groups seperately have done a lot of good work, we have seen practical shooting grow at Bisley, James Harris has worked his socks off to that end with the NRA, & yet as a thankyou the UKPSA have expelled him, how does that action support UK shooting ?

Was he promoting the UKPSA at Bisley or cutting them out?

James has not been in a council representative roll for the UKPSA during his tenure as the elected NRA Shotgun Rep, he is now also a trustee, he has been acting in the best interests of the NRA members he represents & within the structure of command the NRA has in place, to blame James for everything is wrong & is blindingly obvious if you stop for a second to read between the lines, to suggest he was cutting them out is to do him & the NRA a disservice.

Equally trying to prevent F4i matches from happening at Bisley is also unsupportive of shooters & the advancement of UK shooting in general, not to mention down right disgraceful.

That is quite petty, sad to see the NRA retaliating in kind too.

Petty ? Are you serious ?
It could have easily endangered practical shooting for everyone in the UK by its wording & could have had dire consequences for the sport for years, if not forever, it was a reckless & desperate act of spite & showed very poor judgement by the current UKPSA council member that penned it.
I know of no letters written by the NRA trying to prevent UKPSA sanctioned matches taking place, what "in kind" are you referring to ? If your suggesting that the insurance statement is retaliation by the NRA then thats a question for them but I doubt it will be, more likely its an attempt to clarify the actual situation for all concerned.

Only one group is led by a spiteful core of individuals who after years of dictating how practical shooting in the UK could be done have reacted badly to those who only wished to expand its reach & make it easier for people to get involved thereby circumventing their control.

To be honest only the F4i have seemed spiteful so far. I've not heard a UKPSA member say a bad word about F4i, but plenty of slagging off from F4i. I'm not invested in either group, I'm happy so long as I can shoot regularly and safely. Any interruption in that shooting is what will wind shooters up most I think.

You have missed my point completely, many of the UKPSA members are friends with James & the others targeted, my point is that a small number of people who reside in long held council positions within the UKPSA are seen as the problem by many, not the general membership, who for the most part are nice folks who just want to shoot, as do we, but we are prevented, as all UKPSA members are welcome at all four4islands or NRA events but we are prevented from shooting their UKPSA/IPSC matches which party is the spiteful one here ?

The UKPSA council are reacting this way because they fear the loss of that monopoly, it has nothing to do with doing what is right for UK shooters, if that was their goal they wouldn't have waited years for a group like F4i to come along & force them into reacting more positively now.

I'm pretty sure I'd be miffed if, after almost 40 years of developing practical shooting, another group came along and wanted to take away my business, would you not? If they're reacting more positively now why not try to work with that?

More UKPSA propoganda I'm afraid, its more like 40 years of controlling the sport for their own ends, selling the safety course to the authorities as a requirement to getting a section 1 grant is just one of many things they have done that does not forward practical shooting for the masses, it is only advantageous to them & helps ensure guaranteed membership of their association & the money that brings them.
Oh & they have done such a good job that the Isle of Man the Channel Islands & also Northern Ireland felt compelled to go to considerable lengths to escape their iron grip, surely if they were doing such a good job as you imply those areas of the UK would never have petitioned IPSC successfully to break away as they did. They can't all be rebels surely ?
Work with them ? Yes I would, depending on the terms !

SUPPORT THE NRA !!!

Difficult when all I see is a focus on Bisley. Are they offering anything to anyone outside of Bisley? Funding for new practical equipment for example? Will all major matches be held at Bisley if they win, could this alienate anyone not close to the M25?

The weekend just gone saw the second round of the NRA Shotgun League which was also a four4islands series match take place at Shield Shooting Centre in Dorset, last time I checked Weymouth was outside of the M25 by some margin, round 3 is on April 19th at Romsey Shooting Clubs range, also outside the M25 last time I was there, further rounds are planned away from Bisley as well as at the NSC itself, the NRA have secured Edgar Brothers as a League sponsor with the chance for you to win some great prizes & all you have to do is enter any of the league matches to be in the draw, how does any of that alienate you ?


I'd still like to know what F4i do differently. As said, I'm new to it so I don't know what the UKPSA did so terribly.

As a new shooter you were probably forced to do a shotgun safety course before your police force would give you a shotgun for PSG, you can thank the UKPSA for that & many other hoops you will need to jump through before you can compete at their affiliated matches, IPSC does not have an international competition licence system, that is entirely a UKPSA invention, IPSC only require that your regional director grant you permission to shoot at home or abroad, they added the extra layer of control in order to cement their position.
Now before you all jump down my throat I accept training is needed, the real question is why must it be theirs alone ? there are many clubs out there now who are shooting practical competitions outside of UKPSA control as well as the NRA who also offer their own shotgun training, far from being divisive the fact that there are now more choices open to people wanting to get into the sport will ensure that all bodies continue to do their best for the shooters of the UK.
Demonic, If your only experience of practical shooting is with the UKPSA then its unsurprising you have come up with this list of questions, I recommend you get out to some of the other events run by four4islands or the NRA for a more balanced & informed view, I look forward to meeting you.

4I

[Marmite5]

There are always two sides to every story and unfortunately on this subject I trust neither of them. All this in fighting, bickering, name calling and propaganda does nothing for shooting despite what the previous poster says.

[4Islander]

There are always two sides to every story and unfortunately on this subject I trust neither of them. All this in fighting, bickering, name calling and propaganda does nothing for shooting despite what the previous poster says.

You wanted some answers, nobody said you had to like them.....

4I

[Demonic69]

Thanks for the response F4I.
I'm in no way trying to have a dig at anyone, just asking questions that came to mind while reading this and other threads.
Q1) if James was promoting practical shooting outside the UKPSA I could see them being annoyed. There's no question of his value to the sport however.
I've never head about the "incentive" they offered, nor anything to do with the IOM or northern Ireland TBH. I also never said it was ok ;-)

2) Not read it, thanks for clarifying though.

3) I'm not blaming anyone, just a question :-)

4) I was serious with petty, you know the potential ramifications better than I. The "in kind" was the topic of this thread, it still seems unnecessary and more like relation than any honest query.

5) Again, you have more information than I do, just remember that when making digs about the UKPSA. Not everyone knows the reasons and lowering yourselves did you a disservice.

6) It can't have all been bad, there's still practical shooting in the UK and if it wasn't for them would anyone else have taken up the mantel and done things differently, as you guys are doing now?

7) I'm talking about IPSC if the NRA won the bid. Have you had any confirmation what matches would be expected to be run outside of Bisley? Specifically up north, where the beer is better :-) Rossendale seem to be doing some brilliant work, I'd have no problem shooting there for example.

6) Nope. I got 2 section 1 shotgun slots and shot 4 times before I even booked the safety course. I've not heard of the requirement but again, you'd know more and will have seen it before. Maybe it's a perk of South York's!

As I've said, I really do look forward to shooting with you guys :-) one more q, do I have to join F4I to shoot with you?

[4Islander]

one more q, do I have to join F4I to shoot with you?

No, membership is entirely voluntary, it is there for people to show their support for what four4islands does & it provides insurance for those that need it.

As I said, I look forward to shooting with you.

All the best.
4I

[Demonic69]

Nice one, :-)