FAC come back without everything asked for...

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Sim G
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Re: FAC come back without everything asked for...

#51 Post by Sim G »

TattooedGun wrote:
Where in the Home Office Guidance does it suggest that I need to have shot any amount of ammunition to be considered for an increase in ammunition allowance?

If there is some limit, or some justification for them asking for what they asked for (showing how much I had previously bought) I would have provided it. all the HOG suggests is that it is reasonable to possess upto 6000 rounds to ensure consistency in performance for someone who is in a county or national squad. What I therefore provided was evidence that this was the case. How much I had bought and or shot previously does not at any point come into question from the legislation. If it is a legislative procedure, people should be made aware of it and it would have avoided all this hassle. As far as I'm concerned I was acting in accordance with Home Office guidelines...

You really don't get it, do you?

Where in the guidance does it say that the Chief Constable "will" or "shall"? It doesn't. The guidance is exactly that, guidance. And that guidance as far as limits for authority is concerned is what would be deemed acceptable, once good reason has been satisfied. Because that is the cornerstone of the process and the Chief Constable has a legislated duty to ensure that any applicant demonstrates good reason for any firearm or ammunition to which a certificate relates. s27(1)(b) Firearms Act.

You did not demonstrate good reason. You quoted the guidance, and illustrated you shot at county level. Where did you prove your good reason to have your ammo authority raised to 6000 rounds. You didn't. As far as you were concerned, the guidance and county level shooting was good reason enough. I told you it wasn't. You did not show how much ammunition you personally got through. Once you did, your authority was upped. So why would you continue to question such a process? Particularly as it is evident you didn't "do enough"? So who's fault is that? The FEO because he just should have taken it at face value and granted it straight away? I'm afraid I don't think so. And judging from some of the replies, others don't think so either.

By all means, read and refer to the guidance. But also the primary legislation and case law pertaining. Plan your variation applications properly and submit the required justification to satisfy good reason. Go about it that way and you'll save yourself a lot of time, effort and a huge headache. Likewise, you won't clog an already stretched system which has a knock on for everyone else.

That's all that's offered. A way to go about a particular mechanism. I've had my FAC for over 30 years. I currently hold 32 firearms with 6 vacant variations and 6 shotguns. I have an ammo authority for 28000 rounds. I have never had a variation knocked back.....

It's fair to say I have a fairly good handle on how it works...
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
zanes

Re: FAC come back without everything asked for...

#52 Post by zanes »

Whilst they do provide grounds for rather in depth discussions, is it just me that thinks "hold limits" are rather pointless?
HALODIN

Re: FAC come back without everything asked for...

#53 Post by HALODIN »

goodjob
Sim G wrote:I currently hold 32 firearms with 6 vacant variations and 6 shotguns. I have an ammo authority for 28000 rounds.
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TattooedGun
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Re: FAC come back without everything asked for...

#54 Post by TattooedGun »

Sim G wrote:
TattooedGun wrote:
Where in the Home Office Guidance does it suggest that I need to have shot any amount of ammunition to be considered for an increase in ammunition allowance?

If there is some limit, or some justification for them asking for what they asked for (showing how much I had previously bought) I would have provided it. all the HOG suggests is that it is reasonable to possess up to 6000 rounds to ensure consistency in performance for someone who is in a county or national squad. What I therefore provided was evidence that this was the case. How much I had bought and or shot previously does not at any point come into question from the legislation. If it is a legislative procedure, people should be made aware of it and it would have avoided all this hassle. As far as I'm concerned I was acting in accordance with Home Office guidelines...

You really don't get it, do you?

Where in the guidance does it say that the Chief Constable "will" or "shall"? It doesn't. The guidance is exactly that, guidance. And that guidance as far as limits for authority is concerned is what would be deemed acceptable, once good reason has been satisfied. Because that is the cornerstone of the process and the Chief Constable has a legislated duty to ensure that any applicant demonstrates good reason for any firearm or ammunition to which a certificate relates. s27(1)(b) Firearms Act.

You did not demonstrate good reason. You quoted the guidance, and illustrated you shot at county level. Where did you prove your good reason to have your ammo authority raised to 6000 rounds. You didn't. As far as you were concerned, the guidance and county level shooting was good reason enough. I told you it wasn't. You did not show how much ammunition you personally got through. Once you did, your authority was upped. So why would you continue to question such a process? Particularly as it is evident you didn't "do enough"? So who's fault is that? The FEO because he just should have taken it at face value and granted it straight away? I'm afraid I don't think so. And judging from some of the replies, others don't think so either.

By all means, read and refer to the guidance. But also the primary legislation and case law pertaining. Plan your variation applications properly and submit the required justification to satisfy good reason. Go about it that way and you'll save yourself a lot of time, effort and a huge headache. Likewise, you won't clog an already stretched system which has a knock on for everyone else.

That's all that's offered. A way to go about a particular mechanism. I've had my FAC for over 30 years. I currently hold 32 firearms with 6 vacant variations and 6 shotguns. I have an ammo authority for 28000 rounds. I have never had a variation knocked back.....

It's fair to say I have a fairly good handle on how it works...
Evidently if I had 30 years experience I would have a better handle how it works. Perhaps if I had been on the force also I would understand more about how the policing system works. As it stands, I do not. So well done to you for having accrued permission for 32 firearms, 6 variations and 6 shotguns, but some of us have not been at this quite so long.

Some of us see what's written in legislature and, incorrectly it seems, assume that what's written is what's followed. Alas it is not. It's one of those moment where you learn from life.

You seem to think that I'm arguing with you because I think they were wrong. I'm not saying they were wrong, what I am saying is the process of varying for this specific reason is patchy in terms of what evidence one needs to provide in order to get what they need to get the best out of their equipment.

The amount of ammunition I get through in a year is comparatively small compared to the amount that I have applied for, that's because I was not applying for an increase for reasons of volume shot, but more for buying volumes to shoot consistently and competitively which for .22lr means shooting batches until you find the batch that fits the rifle in question, of which I'm sure you already knew this.

So what seemed alien to me was the fact that they were asking for proof that I had been buying ammunition when I had supplied them with fully verifiable data that proved I was shooting and that I was a "serious target shooter". It really doesn't seem beyond reason to go from shooting regular competition = buying ammunition to shoot the competition. At least to me. Of course, now I know differently.

Had I known all that I needed to provide in the first instance, I would have provided it.

Likewise, had I known I was supposed to be writing my ammunition on my FAC that I was buying at the club and shooting at the club I would have done that and missed out all of this headache. As it stands I was told never to write on my own certificate. and Club procedure is to only write on certificates if someone is taking the ammunition away from the site.

So thanks for making me feel about 3 inches tall for following what's written and presented to me, not making the correct assumptions. Cheers. Nice one.
zanes wrote:Whilst they do provide grounds for rather in depth discussions, is it just me that thinks "hold limits" are rather pointless?
My latest certificate only has one number hold only. You can buy any amount upto your hold limit. The honus is on you to make sure you don't encroach that number.
zanes

Re: FAC come back without everything asked for...

#55 Post by zanes »

TattooedGun wrote: My latest certificate only has one number hold only. You can buy any amount upto your hold limit. The honus is on you to make sure you don't encroach that number.
Whilst that wasn't my point, do you mean that you have one allowance on your entire certificate, and you can hold any combination of authorised calibres as long as the total number across all doesn't exceed that one number? That would be very novel.

I'm well aware that the old separate purchase and hold limits per calibre have long since been done away with.
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Re: FAC come back without everything asked for...

#56 Post by TattooedGun »

zanes wrote:
TattooedGun wrote: My latest certificate only has one number hold only. You can buy any amount upto your hold limit. The honus is on you to make sure you don't encroach that number.
Whilst that wasn't my point, do you mean that you have one allowance on your entire certificate, and you can hold any combination of authorised calibres as long as the total number across all doesn't exceed that one number? That would be very novel.

I'm well aware that the old separate purchase and hold limits per calibre have long since been done away with.
Oh, in that case, no. I wish! :p

I wasn't aware of the separate purchase and hold limits were gone until I rec'd my new certificate.
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Sim G
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Re: FAC come back without everything asked for...

#57 Post by Sim G »

TattooedGun wrote:So thanks for making me feel about 3 inches tall for following what's written and presented to me, not making the correct assumptions. Cheers. Nice one.

I'd suggest you get over yourself. Apart from being inexperienced you're now coming over as somewhat childish. What ever endeavour you now embark upon in the sport, be rest assured, I'll leave you to it, regardless of what you put out there in t'internetland, for I would not wish to offend your apparent delicate nature...
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
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TattooedGun
Posts: 2518
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:55 am
Home club or Range: Dudley Rifle Club, UKPSA, Bromsgrove
Location: West Midlands
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Re: FAC come back without everything asked for...

#58 Post by TattooedGun »

Sim G wrote:
TattooedGun wrote:So thanks for making me feel about 3 inches tall for following what's written and presented to me, not making the correct assumptions. Cheers. Nice one.

I'd suggest you get over yourself. Apart from being inexperienced you're now coming over as somewhat childish. What ever endeavour you now embark upon in the sport, be rest assured, I'll leave you to it, regardless of what you put out there in t'internetland, for I would not wish to offend your apparent delicate nature...
That's pretty funny, generally I only come across as childish when I'm being talked down to like a child.

I'm sure I'll survive...
Demonic69

Re: FAC come back without everything asked for...

#59 Post by Demonic69 »

How's the knee healing Sim? ;-)
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Sim G
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Re: FAC come back without everything asked for...

#60 Post by Sim G »

TattooedGun wrote: That's pretty funny, generally I only come across as childish when I'm being talked down to like a child.

nah, that's not the only time....
In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!
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