FAC come back without everything asked for...

[Blackstuff]

When i first got my fac i was allowed 250 .22 rounds.i asked for 500 6 months later and was refused.i wont bother asking again for a while

I think you need to send a copy of the Firearms Licensing Guidance to your FEO. The 'standard' amount of .22 ammo is 600rds for target and double that for pest control!

[Sim G]

But as mentioned on here many times, "Guidance is just that, guidance. It's not law"...

A bloke in our club had exactly the same. 250 rounds to hold for his rimfire. Tried to up it to 1000. FEO asked him how much he shot, and he told a box every visit to the range. The secretary confirmed he attended once a week. FEO told him it wasn't duress for him to attend a gunshop once a month to buy his ammo. His own FAC showed that was exactly what he did....!

It seems that club dynamics attach more and more importance to what a person is authorised for. Particularly in banter and one Up-man-ship. FAC holders then get particularly indignant when a variation or uplift of ammo is refused. It's really simple....,

"Get your evidence together before sticking in the variation!"

You have to show your good reason and frankly, from what I've seen in my clubs and posted on forums, people don't understand this.

And if people stopped putting in half arsed, unprepared variations, perhaps firearms depts waiting times wouldn't be as long because of time wasted either putting people right or denying the outrageous...

[Blackstuff]

Good points Sim!

To be fair if you're only shooting 50rds per month/session then 250 should be enough. If i was restricted to 250 my problem would be that my shooting is sporadic and the amount of ammo varies wildly per session, anything from 10 to 500 rounds per session, and anything from 0 to 8 sessions per month. One month 250 would be more than enough, the next month i could be going to the RFD 5-6 times!

Of course if they just did the sensible thing and got rid of ammo allowances (or set them at explosive/H&S reg levels) they wouldn't be wasting theirs and our times policing this pointless exercise in the first place!

[Mezzer]

But as mentioned on here many times, "Guidance is just that, guidance. It's not law"...

A bloke in our club had exactly the same. 250 rounds to hold for his rimfire. Tried to up it to 1000. FEO asked him how much he shot, and he told a box every visit to the range. The secretary confirmed he attended once a week. FEO told him it wasn't duress for him to attend a gunshop once a month to buy his ammo. His own FAC showed that was exactly what he did....!

It seems that club dynamics attach more and more importance to what a person is authorised for. Particularly in banter and one Up-man-ship. FAC holders then get particularly indignant when a variation or uplift of ammo is refused. It's really simple....,

"Get your evidence together before sticking in the variation!"

You have to show your good reason and frankly, from what I've seen in my clubs and posted on forums, people don't understand this.

And if people stopped putting in half arsed, unprepared variations, perhaps firearms depts waiting times wouldn't be as long because of time wasted either putting people right or denying the outrageous...

+1

Absolutely correct!

Mezzer

[safetyfirst]

Plus one. Last time I stuck in a variation I wrote a letter stating which recognised comps I'd shot in, stating the different rifles I wanted for different comps and stating that I wanted to buy batches of 500 for each rifle for consistency. Bingo, four 22 rifles, one lbp and 2500 rounds of .22.

You've just got to prove you need them and in my limited experience they'll let you have them.

As ever with our inconsistent licensing system, YMMV, Derbyshire have been brilliant with me, I've heard several people have had hell with staffs and an RFD had awful trouble with Derbyshire recently, it's very variable and a bit inconsistent at times but your best bet is always to make their job easier, be clear, state your reasons and back them up with evidence!

[TattooedGun]

Let me put it this way.

I wrote in asking for my increase in allowance, I stated I shoot for the county and in what discipline. I explained it all to the FEO when he called and he said he understood what I was asking for and that it was down to staffs to make the decision.

I explained to both of them why I didn't have previous ammo for the past 2 years written on my ticket, I provided results from the previous 4 years county competitions as well as references to those people, to show that I meet the HO guidelines and I am a county shot. Although I told them over the phone I shoot regularly at the club without taking the ammo away so it doesn't need to go on my ticket, they were adamant that A. the rounds I shoot and use at the club need to go on my ticket, and that I am to write on my own ticket when I am the man in charge on the nights that I shoot, which contravenes the first rule I was ever told about my FAC (the only thing you write on your own FAC is your signature.). and B. they wanted proof of the amount of rounds that I was buying at the club.

I finally managed to get the secretary of our club to put together a letter showing the dates and times of my visits and those where I bought ammunition and sent it off to them. which they accepted and after a few phonecalls to the FEO to check up he got it and the information was getting to the intended recipients (after 2+ months) everything was agreed and I had my FAC back all correct the next week.

So absolutely you need to send the evidence. But frankly when i sent copies of results with my name on them for the past 4 years, its a little un-reasonable of them to thing that I haven't been buying ammunition during those periods. and nowhere does it state that you need to buy X number of rounds to be able to increase your limit to buy for batch tested ammunition.

I was going off the HO guidelines with my evidence, but they wanted more. I can see why, but at what point does it become unreasonable. With results from various competitions over the past 12 months, what point does my word, and substantial evidence showing the HO requirement not become enough.

If there was more requirement then it should be stated so I could have sped things up and applied with that information in the first place, rather than go round in circles for 2 months before getting to conclusion. There has to be some middle ground. No?

[SevenSixTwo]

I currently shoot, on average, 100 centre-fire rounds a month. I won't state the exact amount but my hold is "several thousand" for each calibre. 'Batch consistency' and 'avoidance of shortage' were my reasons and I've had two different FLDs agree with that so far.

[Sim G]

So absolutely you need to send the evidence. But frankly when i sent copies of results with my name on them for the past 4 years, its a little un-reasonable of them to thing that I haven't been buying ammunition during those periods. and nowhere does it state that you need to buy X number of rounds to be able to increase your limit to buy for batch tested ammunition.

I was going off the HO guidelines with my evidence, but they wanted more. I can see why, but at what point does it become unreasonable. With results from various competitions over the past 12 months, what point does my word, and substantial evidence showing the HO requirement not become enough.

If there was more requirement then it should be stated so I could have sped things up and applied with that information in the first place, rather than go round in circles for 2 months before getting to conclusion. There has to be some middle ground. No?

You provided them with results sheets and you say it's unreasonable for them to say you haven't been buying ammo. You told them you were a county shot. You wanted to acquire ammo that had been batch tested....

And in all this, where was the evidence that you needed more ammo than your then, authorised amount? It wasn't there. It wasn't entered on your FAC as bought from an RFD nor did you initially have evidence from your club to what you had purchased.

For all the FEO knows, you did this within your then limits. There was no "more required", it's just that you didn't provide. And frankly, I don't think the FEO gives a hoot that you're a county shot, just show him how much ammo you've used over the period, especially if what you're after is an uplift. Because to be honest, once you obtained that from club you got your requirement.....

[safetyfirst]

Yeah, TG, I don't think this was aimed at you, more of a general observation about people failing to understand the requirements for variation. Glad you've got it all sorted now.

[TattooedGun]

So absolutely you need to send the evidence. But frankly when i sent copies of results with my name on them for the past 4 years, its a little un-reasonable of them to thing that I haven't been buying ammunition during those periods. and nowhere does it state that you need to buy X number of rounds to be able to increase your limit to buy for batch tested ammunition.

I was going off the HO guidelines with my evidence, but they wanted more. I can see why, but at what point does it become unreasonable. With results from various competitions over the past 12 months, what point does my word, and substantial evidence showing the HO requirement not become enough.

If there was more requirement then it should be stated so I could have sped things up and applied with that information in the first place, rather than go round in circles for 2 months before getting to conclusion. There has to be some middle ground. No?

You provided them with results sheets and you say it's unreasonable for them to say you haven't been buying ammo. You told them you were a county shot. You wanted to acquire ammo that had been batch tested....

And in all this, where was the evidence that you needed more ammo than your then, authorised amount? It wasn't there. It wasn't entered on your FAC as bought from an RFD nor did you initially have evidence from your club to what you had purchased.

For all the FEO knows, you did this within your then limits. There was no "more required", it's just that you didn't provide. And frankly, I don't think the FEO gives a hoot that you're a county shot, just show him how much ammo you've used over the period, especially if what you're after is an uplift. Because to be honest, once you obtained that from club you got your requirement.....

I'll refer you back to this post:

From the 2014 Home Office Guidelines on Firearms Licensing.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... t_2014.pdf

Page 113

13.54
Chief officers of police should also consider the “good reason” for possession of
ammunition quantities for target shooting. Allocations of 1,000 rounds, to possess,
purchase or acquire, are not unreasonable for most regular shooters. A serious target
shooter (for example in a county or national squad) may reasonably wish to possess up
to 6,000 rounds to ensure consistency in performance between batches. In exceptional
circumstances greater amounts may be required. These figures should be used as guides
only and should not be interpreted as absolute limits. This is normally applicable to .22RF
rather than full-bore target shooting. Economy of purchase (‘bulk buying’) is not considered
satisfactory as “good reason”

Where in the Home Office Guidance does it suggest that I need to have shot any amount of ammunition to be considered for an increase in ammunition allowance?

If there is some limit, or some justification for them asking for what they asked for (showing how much I had previously bought) I would have provided it. all the HOG suggests is that it is reasonable to possess upto 6000 rounds to ensure consistency in performance for someone who is in a county or national squad. What I therefore provided was evidence that this was the case. How much I had bought and or shot previously does not at any point come into question from the legislation. If it is a legislative procedure, people should be made aware of it and it would have avoided all this hassle. As far as I'm concerned I was acting in accordance with Home Office guidelines...