Warhorse...firearms on stage

[huntervixen]

Evening all,

Went to see Warhorse in Bristol last night with my wife and the outlaws, very impressed indeed, a quite remarkable production and a fitting tribute to all who served in WW1 in this centenary year.

Now being the eternal gun nut I am, with a particular interest in WW1 firearms, I was keen to see what "facsimiles" of the originals they used.

I fully expected them to use plug-fire replicas, so when a Webley mk6 was fired in the air with a deafening roar and a foot long flame (like an M44) I nearly sh*t my liver and dived for cover!! .....Lugers, SMLE's, G98's, all blank firing on the stage ... waving in the direction of the crowd, indoors and in front of hundreds of people made me have a brain fart quite frankly, it just goes against everything I have been told regrading gun safety.

I can only assume the Luger is fitted with some sort of muzzle restriction device for it to function with blanks (it still had a muzzle flash)?

If these aren't the real deal, then they highly detailed custom built blankfire replicas...

All in all, highly recommended, the horses and the goose are astonishing, very skilled people involved in this aspect of the play and its not everyday you have an Imperial German Officer waving a live Luger around and popping off shots indoors!!

[zanes]

I'm pretty certain it would be something like this: http://www.mjknightsmilitaryeffects.co. ... eapons.htm, rather than a live section 5 firearm. For various reasons.... (not least security, safety, cost, etc. etc.)

[Racalman]

It's common for Sec 5 firearms to be used in film productions so I don't see why they shouldn't be used on stage too.

[450 Martini]

They most likely are section 5.
National theatre productions like warhorse are the Pinnacle of British theatre, they have budgets and resources that most theatre company's can only dream of. If they want to hire a Armourer from a section 5 approved prop weapons hire firm every night for several months they can.

A few years ago the armourer at an event I was helping manage showed me how he adapted the guns and very generously let me try out a mag in one of his M1 Thompson's
They adapt semi and full auto firearms by tapping a thread at the muzzle of the gun and inserting a hex nut to restrict the muzzle. This provides the necessary back pressure to fire the mechanism but this ruins the firearm for normal shooting.

[PaulR]

I can only assume the Luger is fitted with some sort of muzzle restriction device for it to function with blanks (it still had a muzzle flash)?

If these aren't the real deal, then they highly detailed custom built blankfire replicas...

HV I've been around the US GI reenactment guys and because I have a deact MP44 I was asked how to clear a jam in one of their 'captured' examples. I ended up showing them and can confirm that most if not all of the 'prop' guns they were using are the real S5 deal with a tubular grub screw located about 3 inches up the barrel. This allows blowback functioning and muzzle flash. Works well in that type of gun as the firearm is straight blowback.

Pistols are a different matter, anything with locking lugs/grooves on the barrel e.g. 1911 has to have the locking lugs removed. The barrel restrictor then provides the back pressure to cycle the pistol. On pistols like the Glock and Sig, look carefully and you'll see that they've chamfered the leading edge of the exposed chamber in the ejection port as this edge acts like the locking lugs on a 1911.

The Luger is yet another problem, it doesn't have locking lugs as it is locked at the point of firing by the toggle lying flat on the action. On firing live stuff the bullet moving down the barrel drives the slide back and a cam starts to 'break' the bend the toggle lock upwards at the knuckle. Blowback then takes over. The only way of simulating that with blanks is to leave the toggle slightly unlocked i.e. slightly raised at the knuckle, so that the back pressure of the blank created by the barrel restrictor takes over and completes the cycle.

If you look closely at Lugers in actors hands especially in the older films, you'll see the knuckle of the toggle raised slightly.

Most of this you'll already know so apologies if I'm trying to teach a mother to suck eggs.

Most of these guns for reenactment and for plays are owned by specialist S5 firearms dealers that attend the shows and will be resident in the theater for each show.

[mr smith]

http://apexfirearms.com/page2.htm

I recently bought a mossberg slugster from Apex firearms,they also supply stuff tv/film.

[450 Martini]

The same companies also supply re-enactment events, The company that used to supply the weaponry for the now defunct Festival of history at Kelmarsh hall used to arrive with a iso container filled with such things like Stens, MP40's Thompsons, Brens, Vickers, MG42's M2's and I believe over 20,000 rounds of blank ammunition. You had to book in with the show's organiser and they would pass your details on to the armourer. On the morning of the show you went to the shipping container with identification and you would be instructed on and issued with your particular weapon. After using it in the battle you handed it back in for the night.

[20series]

I believe my Mauser K98 came from one of the companies supplying the tv/film industry

Alan

[Sim G]

Pistols are a different matter, anything with locking lugs/grooves on the barrel e.g. 1911 has to have the locking lugs removed. The barrel restrictor then provides the back pressure to cycle the pistol. On pistols like the Glock and Sig, look carefully and you'll see that they've chamfered the leading edge of the exposed chamber in the ejection port as this edge acts like the locking lugs on a 1911.

In the late 80's I spoke with a REME armourer in 39 Bde, Lisburn and asked about him making a BFA for our Brownings. A week later I got a call and went and collected half a dozen Browning barrels that were externally, exactly as a live barrel, except for being painted yellow. He had filled the barrel half way up from the muzzle with molten lead, then drilled holes through this, ever increasing, until he found the size of hole that operated the weapon normally and safely. For the remaining couple of years that I was there, they were dragged out half a dozen times a year and functioned perfectly with military issued 9mm blank.

[PaulR]

In the late 80's I spoke with a REME armourer in 39 Bde, Lisburn and asked about him making a BFA for our Brownings. A week later I got a call and went and collected half a dozen Browning barrels that were externally, exactly as a live barrel, except for being painted yellow. He had filled the barrel half way up from the muzzle with molten lead, then drilled holes through this, ever increasing, until he found the size of hole that operated the weapon normally and safely. For the remaining couple of years that I was there, they were dragged out half a dozen times a year and functioned perfectly with military issued 9mm blank.

Don't think that it would be acceptable now days to partially plug the barrel with lead. No matter how secure it may seem, there is still a chance of it becoming dislodged over time and becoming a projectile. Not sure how the lead plug system overcame the locking lugs in the kit you saw Sim, maybe Military Blanks in those days were pokier than now.

Wasn't Brandon Lee killed in such an accident by a .44 'projectile' from a blank firing gun?

In the one's I have looked at, blank firing is achieved by threading the last 2 inches of barrel, then screwing in a hex plug/grub screw, normally tacked welded into place so it can't work loose. To make sure that the pistols cycle reliably most have had their locking lugs removed if they work by delayed blowback.

I think that even blank firing revolvers have to have their barrels restricted so that they can't accidentally fire a live round.