'New' firearms transfer/purchase method

[Blackstuff]

Hello all,

I was meaning to post this after buying my VZ58 MARS from CCA, with regard to the method of entering the gun on my FAC but kept forgetting. A post on guntrader reminded me.

Previously, any guns i sold or bought which came from/went to another person via RFD's, the procedure went: Seller gives gun to their RFD, their RFD sends gun to buyers RFD, buyers RFD gives gun to buyer and fills in their certificate during that transaction.

The way it worked with Calendonian Classic Arms was I sent them my FAC which they fill in, then the gun went to my RFD and my FAC came back to me. My RFD then just checks my FAC when i collect the gun.

If you have a recent FAC the info on sales seems to indicate that this is the correct way of doing things (item 4), its slightly different on old FAC's but along the same lines;



While it was only a little bit more expense (sending my FAC by recorded delivery), and hassle (the gun arrived at my RFD before my FAC so had to wait over the weekend to collect the gun) it does open up a few issues;

1/ You have to risk the loss of your FAC in the postal system
2/ While i was happy enough to send my FAC to CCA, i don't think i'd be too keen on sending it to a private seller who i've never met. I'd effectively be sending them my name, address and a shopping list of guns.
3/ Some RFD's REALLY take the mickey with their transfer fees (one local to me charges £35?!), for what is a few minutes 'work'. Now the receiving RFD does even less for their money, i can see a few people getting peeved.
4/ When sending your transfer notice to the police, what is the date the transfer took place? i.e. The date the seller completed the entry on your FAC, or the date you collected the gun from your RFD?

Which method have you used in the past? What about RFD's, how do you normally do it?

[DavidRees]

My new FAC (issued May this year) contains the same details regarding distance selling.

This, of course, means one has to part with one's FAC for a period of time, and run the risk of it going missing in the post. Special Delivery seems indicated for safety, which is not a trivial cost, plus the time to take it to the Post Office. Also adds 24 hours minimum (time for FAC to get to dealer) to the overall transaction process.

Not a beneficial move for us, then.

David.

[Chapuis]

My new FAC (issued May this year) contains the same details regarding distance selling.

This, of course, means one has to part with one's FAC for a period of time, and run the risk of it going missing in the post. Special Delivery seems indicated for safety, which is not a trivial cost, plus the time to take it to the Post Office. Also adds 24 hours minimum (time for FAC to get to dealer) to the overall transaction process.

Not a beneficial move for us, then.David.

It may not seem so David but if things go wrong and you buy a duff gun it will be far less complicated from a potential legal standpoint in establishing exactly who the contract was between.

[Tony-c]

its not new, old style FAC has the same info.

[Blackstuff]

its not new, old style FAC has the same info.

Apparently so, but which method have you/your RFD have been operating?

[DavidRees]

It may not seem so David but if things go wrong and you buy a duff gun it will be far less complicated from a potential legal standpoint in establishing exactly who the contract was between.

Not sure I agree here -- the entry on the FAC is irrelevant on that point -- with a purchase from a gun dealer, one receives an invoice, which establishes the legal responsibility you refer to. In the case of a private seller, it is more complicated, but the audit trail is still clear.

Earlier this year, I bought a 2nd-hand gun from a dealer, who sent it to my local RFD. The latter put it on my ticket as "GIVEN". In the event, the gun proved faulty, and I returned it to the original dealer via RFD-to-RFD transfer. The invoice was the relevant document in this case, not the name of who wrote the gun into my FAC.

My concern is primarily the requirement to let my FAC out of my possession. If lost, my security is compromised, because people become aware of where I live, and the firearms and ammunition which could potentially be found there. Even with Special Delivery, there is a small risk, which I'd prefer not to take. I think I'll continue to use the old method (NOT sending off my FAC beforehand) as long as I can...

David.

[ovenpaa]

My initial take on the wording was that is only applied to FAC (Private) sales as opposed to RFD (company) sales however it is a bit ambiguous. As an RFD I certainly have not been advised of the change by my FLO however this does not mean a great deal as the onus is always on the RFD to ensure they work to the latest legislation by way of the Guide on Firearms Licensing Law 2014 and even then the description includes the wording:

This document provides consolidated guidance on firearms licensing legislation. This guide is not intended to be a definitive statement of the law, but a cohesive explanation of the often complex area of firearms licensing.

Do any other forum RFD's have a view on this?

[bigfathairybiker]

The info on the FAC states that:-

If you transfer your gun in person you enter the details on the receiving FAC. And you notify the police firearms dept.

If you transfer you gun via an RFD you just notify your police firearms dept that you have transfered it to the RFD.

The RFD notifies the police that they have transfered it to another RFD. Then that RFD enters it on the FAC of the person they transfer it to. And then both notify the police.

That is how I have read it.

The police are not interested in the sold/given but only the fact that there was a transfer and who it ended up being transfered to.

The RFD that required the FAC was being a pain in the arse or just trying to cover his arse.

I suppose that a problem could arise if the sending RFD sends the gun and the RFD at the other end finds that the puchaser has in tge mean time filled the slot with something else. The RFD is the stuck with the cost of returning it.

Mark

[Tony-c]

Technically caladonia arms are correct.
The fac states clearly that the dealer should not complete the table.

[Blackstuff]

The info on the FAC states that:-

If you transfer your gun in person you enter the details on the receiving FAC. And you notify the police firearms dept.

If you transfer you gun via an RFD you just notify your police firearms dept that you have transfered it to the RFD.

The RFD notifies the police that they have transfered it to another RFD. Then that RFD enters it on the FAC of the person they transfer it to. And then both notify the police.

That is how I have read it.

The police are not interested in the sold/given but only the fact that there was a transfer and who it ended up being transfered to.

The RFD that required the FAC was being a pain in the arse or just trying to cover his arse.

I suppose that a problem could arise if the sending RFD sends the gun and the RFD at the other end finds that the puchaser has in tge mean time filled the slot with something else. The RFD is the stuck with the cost of returning it.

Mark

The last line in point 4 (shown above), clearly states that the recevieing RFD should NOT fill in the buyers FAC, or that they should notify the police.

Only just noticed that part about the receiving RFD not even having to notify the police. Makes you wonder what you're paying a receiving RFD a transfer fee at all for, other than to use their premises as a drop off point for the package. Oh and the phone call to tell you its there. Thats £35 worth of effort according to the nearest RFD to me