Reload of Pistol ammunition 38/357

[tinhat3]

Just started reloading and have managed to sort out a viable process for both 303B and 308
However I have just run through the process for reloading 357 and .38 Special and come up against a 'problem'

The bullets provided are 158g lead round nose (Hannams) and have a blue stripe round the centre
with a crimp groove
otherwise nothing unusual
Reading through the loading manual (Lee Reloading Edition 2)
I should have Min overall length for
.38 of 1.475 "
.357 of 1.610"
I and using IMR Trail boss powder.

However If I load the bullets to the groove this gives
.38 of 1.424"
.357 of 1.566"
Both below the Minimum overall length for each round.

Out of interest I measured the MOL of some PPU .38 and .357 I had in the cabinet
.38 1.450"
.357 1.572"


The 308 (155g Sierra Match) and 303 (174g FMJBT) were fine, case checks OK (including overall length) and final MOL all OK
the cases for the .38 and .357 were checked, resized, did not need trimming and primed OK

So Basically HELP
any advice would be much appreciated

[JSC]

The 'crimp groove' may not be that. Personally, I've never taken much notice of crimp grooves anyway. If you're using Trail Boss then you obviously aren't loading really heavy rounds so you should be able to get away with very little crimp anyway, or taper crimp.

If you can post a photo of the bullet here, that may help.

BTW, it's usually a Maximum OAL quoted not Minimum, so those OALs you quoted will be OK anyway.
Also, the quoted OALs will vary from one bullet to another, due to the differences in weight, design and shape, so there isn't ever one definitive OAL for any particular round.

[FredB]

The COL quoted in reloading manuals is to protect against too much pressure with maximun loads. Gallery rifle shooting uses loads way below max pressure and so COL does not matter. For normal lever-action type shooting, I would actually use the crimp groove. Crimp prevents the bullet being forced back into the case when being fed from the magazine, which can dramatically increase the pressure. For single shot rifles, I don't crimp anything. If you want ultimate precision accuracy, measure your chamber length and adjust the COL until the bullet just touches the rifling. With a magazine fed rifle, this is not likely to make any difference as the chambers are cut sloppy to aid feeding, but it can give significant improvements in group size in single shots.
Fred

[JSC]

Agree with all of that, but heavy crimp and crimp grooves are also used to prevent the bullets from easing out of the unfired rounds in a heavy recoil situation, such as shooting a 357 Mag revolver.

Trail Boss is designed to be very safe and you can't overcharge any cartridge with it because it's so bulky, so really the OAL isn't going to matter much in this case, as long as the rounds feed/chamber OK and the bullets stay in the cases!

[Tony-c]

if this is for a Marlin lever gun then I would recommend trying some 158gr TC bullets, they work far better in all my lever guns I have owned

I do work on the COL as I have found that small tweaks will change the grouping, my OCD plays hell if things are not spot on :)

as already stated I suspect that they are infact maximum lengths, from memory I dont beleive that any of my marlins would run anything over 1.600 long.

[WelshShooter]

Same as Tony-c I load 158gr TC bullets out to around 1.600 in my Marlin which feed fine and group excellently. I think the crimp is just on the groove of these bullets so it might be worth checking these out. See attached pic, 5.6gr of Ramshot True Blue at max OAL gives a nice 5 shot group and is now my competition load.

[Tony-c]

checked mine last night, and this is just for your info, every gun has slight tweaks needed to get that "perfect" load

I run Vit 310 4.6gr, I know many people running less, but in my gun the groups opened up and just that lil bit extra really made huge difference, this is a fast powder, comparable to bullseye but its extremely clean, my fired cases are as clean as they were before LOL

158gr GM hardcast tc bullet,

federal small pistol primers, nice and soft so you can run light hammer spring

COL 1.595

rested at 25 tears ragged hole, rested at 50 it does about 1" centre to centre

this is 12 shots offhand at 25m, does the job for me

[tinhat3]

Thanks guys.
Lots of information to digest.
As I said I'm just starting out on reloading, so opted for safety and picked
minimum load and bullet I've already seen reloaded (as part of a demo)
The COL comes from the Lee Manual Second edition, the last column clearly states Min O A L, 1.610
However it only states 158 grain Lead bullet with no profile.
Does anyone how how to wok out the Min OAL when you are loading wadcutters? as these have a different profile to a 'tradition hemispherical bullet.
Thanks for all the info MUCH appreciated
Tinhat3

[JSC]

All the advice given so far has been valid. What you need to do now is sort out which bits apply to your situation...

So, I think we're assuming you are using these .38/.357 loads in an underlever, but is this correct?

The minimum OAL stated in reloading is there to stop you loading the cartridge too short which could:
1. Lead to an overpressure situation for the given powder charge
2. Not allow the cartridge to feed properly in an underlever or semi-auto

The maximum OAL stated is there to stop you loading the cartridge too long which could:
1. Stop the round from chambering (bullet will engage rifling too soon)
2. Not allow the cartridge to be loaded into a magazine
3. Not allow the cartridge to feed properly in an underlever or semi-auto
4. Allow the bullet to fall out of the case before you get a chance to fire it (yes, it happens!)

BUT - these OALs are all measurements which just allow you to have a reference point when you are loading. Don't worry too much about how one particular OAL measurement in one book compares to another.

What's important is what OAL functions in you particular gun and is safe. So as you get more experienced with handloading, you will leave the loading manuals behind and build up your own reference tables which have your specific data in them (gun, barrel, bullet type/weight/profile, case length, powder, charge, OAL etc.) and it is good practice to load some dummy rounds to the best OAL for each application so you can use those as a reference each time you have a reloading session.

You could also load some dummy rounds to check the OAL range which functions correctly in your gun. A revolver isn't really going to be a problem unless the bullet sticks out so far the cylinder won't close! But in an underlever, you want to be sure you can load the magazine easily and that they feed well when you work the action.

A lot of people will say that you should seat your bullets so that when the round is chambered, the bullet is very close to engaging with the rifling. This comes from long range rifle shooting, where that can be a way to improve accuracy, but I'm not sure it's so important with a carbine. It's usually the bullet/barrel combination and powder type/charge which makes the difference with these.

With wadcutters, just measure in the same way as with round nose. Tip of the bullet to the end of the case. It doesn't matter the bullet has a flat nose. I'm assuming you're using accurate vernier calipers for this? Don't forget, this is just a reference measurement. It may not bear any relation to someone else's OAL measurement.

In any case, you've done the right thing in starting with the MIN OAL and MAX charge wt. from a reloading manual, as these will be safe. Just work your way up a little at a time, accurately measuring and recording all the data as you go and you'll soon have your own reloading tables which will be much more relevant to you than the universal ones.

[tinhat3]

Thanks JSC
Ref the last paragraph I've gone with Min OAL and Min charge weight (rather than Max)
I have already started to record the information do you know if someone has created a downloadable spreadsheet?
Thanks Again
TH3