Rotten markers, what's to be done?

[Maggot]

as far as the Stickledown target frames are concerned, I have heard it mentioned that they are too tall for some of the markers to pull down, would it be feasible to fit rope leashes to the frames to allow the downward pull to be started without someone having to jump and swing? the weight of the frames is always going to be a problem, however, are they correctly counterweighted? I have never been to the butts at Stikledown, however i have been to and used the frames at Century, theres lots of grease everywhere, but is it ever cleaned and replaced? old grease is almost as bad as no grease!

These are seen at Diggle Ken and are quite helpful mate, I looped one round my wrist, easy to get the thing going.

[Maggot]

on the last occasion i booked a marker , which is a rare occurence, I was pleased with the service provided. So much so i left a tip for them. While i agree that they should provide a good service irrespective of tips/bonuses how many of you have actually got on teh radio at the end of the detail and said thank you, good job or other praise?

Encouragement helps a lot. Explain what you want in simple terms, most dont shoot and very very few would have your experience and none will know what it is you want unless you tell them- so communicate clearly to them

Complaints to the range office need to be quantified, i.e marker did now know what a "group size was" helps the staff resolve future issues far more then "marker was crap".

ultimately in comes down to cost, if you want a premium service then you probably have to pay for it in some way.

Stickledown frames- even at 6'2" i need to reach up for them, at over 220lbs and reasonably fit they are not easy to operate though i can operate them one handed. Bear in mind that a skinny 17 year old may struggle a bit when you next criticise them for being slow!

Again, some wide ranging assumptions.

While complaints may start with "The marker is crap" mine tend to end in a one to one with Chris, Jacko, or a written job.

Tipping is a good one and I have done it, I am going to suggest to our training pod we have a whip round for a goodun.

[kennyc]

as far as the Stickledown target frames are concerned, I have heard it mentioned that they are too tall for some of the markers to pull down, would it be feasible to fit rope leashes to the frames to allow the downward pull to be started without someone having to jump and swing? the weight of the frames is always going to be a problem, however, are they correctly counterweighted? I have never been to the butts at Stikledown, however i have been to and used the frames at Century, theres lots of grease everywhere, but is it ever cleaned and replaced? old grease is almost as bad as no grease!

These are seen at Diggle Ken and are quite helpful mate, I looped one round my wrist, easy to get the thing going.

its not rocket science is it ? I've seen roller doors fitted with them for as long as I remember, and I've also seen them fitted to car boot doors, I guess in a world of 6'5" Demi-Gods such as the NRA there is no thought for the little guy/gal tongueout

[karen]

I guess in a world of 6'5" Demi-Gods such as the NRA there is no thought for the little guy/gal tongueout

Not met Iain have you? :lol:

Wish he was a 6'5" Demi-God . . . or George Clooney . . .

Well a girl can dream . . .

love

karen

[1066]

[

Taking the p*** out of those complaining is fine, until you lose a comp or lose total confidence in your kit because of a marker having a laugh.

.

Last year we had an annual club competition completely ruined by poor marking on Stickledown. None of us live closer than 1.5 hours drive to Bisley, so with about £30 for petrol, £50 for ammunition plus range fees, it makes for an expensive and disappointing day.
After almost every round we waited for a minute or two with no sign of the target being pulled down, then after a M4 prompt
the target was pulled down and stayed down for another 3-4 minutes. It was taking over an hour for a pair of shooters to get a dozen rounds off, consequently not everyone got to shoot.

On Century I've seen targets pulled down and marked when no shots have been fired and an unlikely run of V bulls without the spotting disc being moved when shooting with iron sights at 600 yds.

I believe that half the time the markers are on their phone, texting or music blasting through their earphones. I think there would be an immediate improvement if phones/Ipods were banned.

I must say, we also have had some excellent marking.

[hitchphil]

Target 37 is the new one? wheels run inside a U slot instead of being on on a V edge, my kids mark & say it is crap that's lad language for not that much better. Its replicated the Sticks design. 108 is a new frame of the old Century design & that works better.

At the Bisley live event we got the markers up for a shoot. They really appreciated that & it showed them what we shooters were up against, they understood their part of the process. That is the way to go but then markers need to clear the Section 21 hurdle.

My kids have done the training, no mention of hearing protection, no mention of dont pick up a hot lump of copper if it lands next to you. nothing about what emergency messages mean (double long hooter etc) not much on where to loose your fingers in the mechanism. There was no mention of message numbers & meanings & there are no reminder posters or cards given out. The butt super rides up n down Century in a buggy in the road (that I was always told to never be out there its dangerous), the super does not manage marker behavior / performance mostly refaces targets.

Crap shooting does not help, shots out of the black are hard to find as the white area is springy the hole closes up, the sand splash harder to see. Shots in the frame are hard to find. Shots between targets could be either target?

Shooters rarely stand the marker down between details, shooters rarely say 'Hi we are club x who are you', shooters rarely tip a marker for good performance, shooters rarely say thanks for you help when finding ranging shots (that should be down on the zero range). Markers are sometimes left to sit to end of the shift rather than being let off early when a target is finished.

Its boring, repetitive, uninteresting, work with no sight of what is happening from the FP, little rest, no feedback, poor pay NB clubs pay 32 the marker gets 28, but paying double wont make a big difference as money only motivates so much.....

There is no person spec, some are dope heads, some lads baiting the lasses, some just too small. Like many teenagers they come from all walks of life all backgrounds. Some hate the job, some mess about because they are bored.

That's what my kids say - horses mouth.

How to make it better?

Our club try's to use members kids or scouts, they are also members or shooting guests & we rotate them up for a shoot whenever possible. All new members do a stint in the butts, we forget to stand them down too! but our markers aint afraid to ask for a break either. Our markers give us feedback "would shooter 2 in the sequence please put 2moa elevation on to get into the bloody bull thanks" has been heard, we use own radios or company mobiles to 1to1 comms that works much better than shared radios. We have a card on the FP with the range messages on it to remind us.

Sometimes i think the targets should have the same grid on them as our plot diagrams so the maker can tell us what to do!

So do we just get what we deserve?

[Mezzer]

When our club visits Altcar for a shoot, we use our own people to mark the targets.
With a bit of planning and sufficient numbers it isn't difficult and everyone gets to shoot. I fully understand that this won't be possible in a lot of situations but where it is feasible I would encourage it. At least then you will know you have people marking your target who are actually interested in how you score. In addition, the marker (as a shooter himself) will be much more aware of the safety aspects relating to working on a live range and hopefully, will deliver a better service.

Mezzer

[Gaz]

My kids have done the training, no mention of hearing protection, no mention of dont pick up a hot lump of copper if it lands next to you. nothing about what emergency messages mean (double long hooter etc) not much on where to loose your fingers in the mechanism. There was no mention of message numbers & meanings & there are no reminder posters or cards given out.

Erm. Surely this is basic health and safety info and job-critical information??

No wonder the marking is p*** - they're both deaf and clueless!

(seriously, how can you mark if you're not told what the standard messages mean?)

[Mezzer]

My kids have done the training, no mention of hearing protection, no mention of dont pick up a hot lump of copper if it lands next to you. nothing about what emergency messages mean (double long hooter etc) not much on where to loose your fingers in the mechanism. There was no mention of message numbers & meanings & there are no reminder posters or cards given out.

Erm. Surely this is basic health and safety info and job-critical information??

No wonder the marking is p*** - they're both deaf and clueless!

(seriously, how can you mark if you're not told what the standard messages mean?)

Gaz;

Agreed!

Under NO circumstances would I allow my kids to work (and lets be clear here, that is what they are doing) in those conditions and at such risk. The Health & Safety Executive would take a very dim view of the condition of the equipment that the markers have to work with. I expect that they would probably issue an Improvement Notice as a minimum to get things sorted.

But hey ... don't worry folks (at the NRA), it'll never happen .... until someone looses a finger, at which point you can all expect your membership fees to be spent on something other than a new set of decent frames i.e. legal fees and compensation. Oh .... and did I mention that you will probably be prevented from using the affected target frames until such time as they are changed out.

I'm aware that there is only so much cash in the pot at Bisley and how it's spent is all about priorities. However, the HSE's priorities are very different from those of the NRA's management. HSE exists to protect workers in the workplace and we should be in no doubt that these markers are exactly that. From what I saw in 2011, it is inevitable that an incident will take place in those butts. It's just a matter of time and such a shame because it is so easily avoided.

Mezzer (wearing my H&S hat)

[Stuck]

Drilled blank rounds given as a token of thanks for a job well done?

I've yet to meet a teenager that doesn't thing "ammo" is "cool".