Use of electronic targetry on MOD ranges now banned

[AR15]

''Its got nothing to do with how the target is presented.''

Yes it has, that's the only difference. One is electronic the other manual.
If on a FFR the SARTS system can be re programmed then the shooters on the day can decide the course of fire.

''the Military are not allowed to make it up as they go along and all Courses of Fire are documented in the AOSP suite of publications which takes a soldier through a recognised progressive training and assessment system for what ever weapon system is being used. Why then should a Civilian Club be able to make it us as they go along?''

When has any club had to shoot a specific course of fire when renting a MOD range? We are civilians not military, we are not training, rather enjoying a sport. The range targetry system can be used to present whatever course of fire is required by the club on the day, that falls within the standing orders for the specific range.

[John MH]

I'm afraid you really don't understand what is involved. The rules changed last year and the implementation of them has clearly not been consistent across the DIO Land Ranges.

The recognised disciplines are from the DIO perspective those covered by NGB Rule Books. As far as the DIO are concerned NRA Target Rifle shooting as noted in DLRSC RSPL 13/02 is the use of typically 7.62mm calibre single shot rifles, however, they are prepared to see a variety of legally held rifles used in accordance with the Rules laid down in the NGB Rule Books.

Now we all know what happens when clubs hire MoD Ranges, but the problem that will arise is when there is an incident and the question is asked what were you doing and what procedures were you following. The Military are covered by their own set of 'Rules' as laid down in AOSP and JSPs, the DIO and DSEA are required to ensure that MoD Land Ranges are used safely and in order to do that Civilians are required to demonstrate that they are competent and safe users. The NRA/NSRA/CPSA/UKPSA/MLAGB all agreed to the conditions set out in RSPL 13-02 and were involved in negotiating how the legal obligations required of the DIO could be met by civilians; this requires SSC and Qualified NMO RCOs shooting in accordance with the rules laid down by the NGB.

If you pick this scab too hard you'll see no civilian shooting on MoD Ranges as the DIO are not prepared to take the risk of a civilian having or causing an accident if they are left to do as they please.

The issue of SARTS may or may not be resolved, if Major Fox was to read this thread I'd not be surprised if he digs his heals in further.

Now I know you'll not agree with any of this and will assume you know better but thats the way it is.

[IainWR]

Hi

First, other than Dromia's message late last year which IIRC dealt with access to ETRs, nobody has contacted me or as far as I know anyone else at the NRA over this, and we have definitely not had any input regarding access to SARTS. In order to do anything we need to know what is happening, who decided it, what their appointment is, what their address is, what their phone no is, a copy of what was said if it is in writing, when and to who and in what context it was said.

Second, we have no right to MoD facilities. We use these ranges at the discretion of the operators and as the very lowest priority. And these are MoD ranges, with a new and not fully developed and very expensive system intended for military training, which does require a bit of induction to operate. I'm not surprised that there is reluctance to allow outsiders to use it.

Third, it does seem that there are regional issues here. Almost by definition, if clubs are getting what they want from MoD, they are unlikely to tell people about it - they just accept it as the norm. So it may be that we are going to have to go looking for where things are working, and that is going to take time, and then it is going to take more time to establish why things are working and how to move that understanding to where things are not working.

So please, tell me what is happening (and yes I do need people to do the basic research for me) and what you have done about it so far (and yes I do need the whole story so I can take some kind of a guess how it looks from the MoD point of view) and when we have some staff time and an opportunity to discuss with MoD (whose staff have many many things to be doing other than negotiating use of their new kit by people who do not contribute to the output) I will see what is possible. Which may be nothing. And when we have agreement with MoD on something, and agreement to do so, the NRA will publish what can be done.

Iain
iain.robertson@nra.org.uk

[AR15]

Hi Ian, can you explain what Andrew Mercer was doing at a meeting about this exact problem over 12 months ago then?

[tackb]

I'm struggling to see the MODS issue here ? We are not plebs we are by and large intelligent people who do a variety of challenging jobs and I'm sure we are capable of operating this system with a little training? Probably less training than your average soldier ? Especially considering it would be RCO's doing it ?

We're not using destructo zap laser blasters in public we want to use new targetry (paid for by us I may add!) on existing ranges that we use , no new safety zones I'm guessing ? So what is the actual problem?

Historically the NRA has done us a lot of wrongs over the years but I have to say I was softening towards them recently and I will wait and see what they do about this ? However Iain clearly needs support from us on this ! He has stated that very clearly so can those that are in possession of facts about this please give Iain the support he needs ?

[Blu]

tackb,

Probably less training than your average soldier ? Especially considering it would be RCO's doing it ?

Really? What makes you think that the average RCO's would be any smarter than "your average soldier"? As an ex soldier and someone who has run an ETR during military training, I take exception to that remark. In all the years I've been shooting I've seen many divvy civvy sportsmen and women on both sides of the pond that shouldn't be allowed near a firearm let alone being allowed on a range with one. Usually it's someone of senior or warrant rank that runs the ETR and you don't get to those ranks through being a divvy.

Blu

[AR15]

I'm sure there are many divmil and divciv. As you say running an ETR will be conducted by someone who is correctly trained.
The fact that civilians have assisted in the test and evaluation of the new system with Lockheed Martin and been given ammunition to do so should say a lot about how we as recreational shooters can assist and support our military. I find it offensive to be told that I am stupid and cannot operate some new technology that others have tested and helped to function properly.

Hand the training out to the clubs and lets get on with shooting.

[John MH]

I'm sure there are many divmil and divciv. As you say running an ETR will be conducted by someone who is correctly trained.
The fact that civilians have assisted in the test and evaluation of the new system with Lockheed Martin and been given ammunition to do so should say a lot about how we as recreational shooters can assist and support our military. I find it offensive to be told that I am stupid and cannot operate some new technology that others have tested and helped to function properly.

Hand the training out to the clubs and lets get on with shooting.

Who said you were stupid?

[nfrancis]

Who said you were stupid?

Everyone, who is not on one's side or who does not agree with one - is stupid.

Didn't you know?

[tackb]

tackb,

Probably less training than your average soldier ? Especially considering it would be RCO's doing it ?

Really? What makes you think that the average RCO's would be any smarter than "your average soldier"? As an ex soldier and someone who has run an ETR during military training, I take exception to that remark. In all the years I've been shooting I've seen many divvy civvy sportsmen and women on both sides of the pond that shouldn't be allowed near a firearm let alone being allowed on a range with one. Usually it's someone of senior or warrant rank that runs the ETR and you don't get to those ranks through being a divvy.

Blu

I think I'm sorry I've offended you ?

You've answered your own question yourself though , senior or warrant rank that runs ETR ?

RCO's are trained to run a range as well you know , they don't pass that qual by being a divvy !

Now un bunch your panties (I really didn't mean to offend you) and maybe comment on the rest of my post ?