Use of electronic targetry on MOD ranges now banned

[dromia]

Well we know the answer to those questions, but where was the forward thinking to encompass the use of the targetry within the civilian context. Why has it come to this backfooted pass when Mercer was involved in this?

From what you are showing us John Major Fox's interpretation could be widened stopping the current use of the targetry by those clubs who have access to it, not a good outcome. So a regional issue could become a national problem.

[John MH]

From what you are showing us John Major Fox's interpretation could be widened stopping the current use of the targetry by those clubs who have access to it, not a good outcome. So a regional issue could become a national problem.

Quite possibly, however, SARTS is not being fitted to Gallery Ranges with only Hythe Frames. It is being fitted to Converted Gallery Ranges but they mostly still have Hythe Frames and those frames are still being maintained by Landmarc so NRA paper targets can still be used.

The military may eventually go over to all SARTS ranges as this allows more troops to be processed through qualification in a more time efficient manner (if it works reliably) and on designated Ranges allow real-time 1 to 1 coaching of troops on the firing point with the AMS Toughbooks (these are not scaled for each firing point on all SART Ranges). If they do go over to all SARTS then there will be no MoD requirement for Hythe Frames to be maintained and that could be a bigger problem for civilian use of MoD Ranges.

[Gaz]

The lateral-thinking devil in me reckons, by John MH's reasoning that this has all come about because there are no "NRA approved" ETR practices, that the easiest way to keep on shooting is for someone at the NRA with an appropriately large signature block to knock up a quick letter headed "APPROVED NRA ETR/AMS/MMTT PRACTICES", copy/paste the relevant paragraphs out of AOSP (i.e. all of them!) and send it round to all affiliated clubs. CC in the MoD and Landmarc, job's a good'un.

[AR15]

The restriction of the existing AMS system at Catterick that's on the range charge list makes no sense at all.

I keep hearing this guff about how the new system can't be reprogrammed (I got that from Landmarc this morning), what utter nonsense. What idiot installs a targetry system of this nature that cannot be changed or upgraded in the future?

RANGE SAFETY POLICY LETTER13/02– CIVILIAN USE OF MoD RANGES is a policy document for range use not use of targetry, neither is it a requirement of affiliation with the NRA to shoot non ETR targets.
ETR's are not mentioned within the document at all.
While the NRA as the NGB may have no requirements for ETR's, local clubs that rent these ranges do.
Any RCO should be trained on the targetry used at the given range, that training should be made available and the cost absorbed by the club. Many clubs across the UK continue to rent ranges and use the new SARTS system, including the ranges at Warminster so this training must have been given at some stage and should still be available.
In my book that sets a precedent.

SECTION 58 – TARGETS, found within the NRA Handbook .
221 Particulars of the various targets are given in Appendix IV. Any changes
in NRA target dimensions will be ratified by the Shooting Committee and
Council during September and will come into effect on 1 April following.
222 Unless otherwise stated in the Conditions, targets as appropriate to the
discipline and distance as indicated in Appendix IV will be used. MR including
Any Rifle will use TR targets.
Section 59-60 Reserved
Paras 223-251 Reserved

I read Appendix IV and it describes the type of target, NOT the system that presents it to the shooter. Fig11's are mentioned and that's exactly whats painted on the fall when hit & reset targetry on the ranges near us.
Unless there is a document that precludes civilian use of electronic targetry I cant see why there should be an issue, provided that adequate training has been given to operate the system in the correct manner.
Otherwise what is anyone renting from the MOD, nothing but a very expensive field!

[John MH]

The new system can probably be reprogrammed but Army Policy is that it is not allowed as clearly quoted above. The system was installed for Military use not Civilian use and on fixed template ranges there is no need to reprogram it, programming it in FFR is allowed where targets are raised and lowered independently. Landmarc operate the ranges for the MoD not for civilians and they do what they are told by the DIO.

13/02 clearly states the rules for Civilian use of MoD Ranges.

The policy and process of recognition of sporting activities and associated NGBs of sport is overseen by the four Sports Councils (Sport England, Sport Northern Ireland, Sport Scotland and Sport Wales) and UK Sport. NGBs of sport are typically private organisations, which provide a single lead NGB structure at UK, GB, or Home Country level that satisfies published criteria on governance related issues and structures. Inrespect of competitive target shooting, NGBs govern a particular discipline through the common consent of the sport itself and they provide a range of training courses on safe conduct and safe supervision of range practices within their respective sporting disciplines. Recognition as an NGB is an acknowledgement of this situation and does not in itself confer additional authority or rights; however, the MoD acknowledges that each of them have a nationally recognized status as being the centre of excellence for each of their respective disciplines. The principal NGBs recognised by the MoD are:

a. The National Rifle Association (NRA), which is the NGB for full-bore target shooting. The rifles used in full-bore competitions typically have a 7.62mm calibre, and are single shot rifles.

b. The National Small-Bore Rifle Association (NSRA) which is the NGB for all Small-bore Rifle and Pistol Target Shooting in the United Kingdom, including Airgun and Match Crossbow Shooting. The weapons used in small-bore competitions are typically of .22 calibre or less.

c. The Clay Pigeon Shooting Association of Great Britain (CPSA) and the United Kingdom Practical Shooting Association (UKPSA) are both NGBs for shotgun target shooting.

d. The Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain (MLAGB) which is the NGB for black powder muzzle loading firearms, for target shooting.

The NRA is the only relevant organisation in this particular circumstance.

Eligibility. To be eligible to use a MoD land range, a civilian club must apply for a MoD Licence - DIO Form 5665.

Additionally, they must:

a. Be approved by the Home Office for the calibre of firearms they intend to use on MoD ranges and must be able to produce written confirmation from the Home Office to that effect. (Application for the Secretary of State or Scottish Ministers’ approval is made on Form 124, which is available from any of the principal NGBs). Approval is granted in a Letter of Approval, which is sent to the applicant and copied to the Chief Officer of Police.

b. Be affiliated to the appropriate NGB at paragraph 3 above and must be able to produce written confirmation that its affiliation fees are paid.

c. Provide evidence of valid insurance cover (see paragraph 7 below).

d. Be able to provide a NGB qualified Range Conducting Officer (RCO) for each range to be used who is competent on the calibre of weapon and proposed activity to be conducted. The RAU is to hold a list of current RCOs together with their expiry date and a list of weapons they are qualified to conduct practices for (for further detail see paragraph 20).

e. Ensure that Full Members possess and are able to produce valid membership cards confirming their Club Chairman’s certification of their competence on their individual weapon type. This is managed at Club Level but is validated, assured and supervised by the NGB who define the processes to be used to issue the Certificates of Competence. A number of disciplines carry the same descriptive but it is the calibre that dictates which NGB is responsible for the specific discipline when issuing Certificates of Competence.

f. Ensure that any Probationary Members are supervised on a one-to-one at all times by either a Full Member of the club who is authorised by the Chairman of the club or by a NGB trained and certified instructor or coach.

g. Adhere to the Safe Shooting System (SSS), for full bore shooting which is detailed at Annex A.

This SSS has been adopted by the MoD as best practice for full bore shooting on MoD Ranges.

If you haven't been trained on SARTS how can you be competent

Civilian RCO – Civilian rifle clubs. To ensure safe conduct live fire practices by the membership of a civilian club, the Chairman is to appoint a current RCO who has been formally qualified on the appropriate NMO RCO course to conduct the Clubs shooting and to exercise the Chairman’s responsibility for ensuring safe conduct of the practice by the membership. The procedure and qualification requirements for civilians to exercise the full responsibilities of a civilian club RCO on MoD land ranges are as follows:

a. Club Chairmen wishing members of their club to use a MoD range will nominate to the appropriate NGB (paragraph 3) members who they consider are competent to be RCOs by way of any previous qualification or experience.

b. Upon the recommendation of the Club Chairman the appropriate NGB will, if satisfied, issue to the club a certificate listing by name those members which they accept as being competent to conduct the standard firing practices listed in the rules of the appropriate NGB together with an NGB RCO card giving the details of the practices the RCO is eligible to conduct. On receipt of the certificate, the secretary of the club concerned will forward a copy, signed by each authorised RCO, to the RAU and issue each RCO with a “MoD RCO Card”.

c. The RCO must be in possession of both an in date NGB RCO card and an MoD RCO card identifying the individual by name and their qualification to conduct firing practices.

d. RCO’s are deemed qualified if they have:

(i) Current or former military service (who has not left the service for more than 2 years), either regular or reserve, through which an appropriate military RCO qualification has been achieved.

or

(ii) Achieved a satisfactory standard on the appropriate NGB course.

The bit in red above is the problem, what NGB has ETR practices (read Courses of Fire) in its Rule Book? The closest discipline in the Bisley Bible is CSR but there are currently no ETR practices.

Accessing training would have to be by agreement with the MoD and there may or may not be a charge for it.

The NRA is the organisation best placed to sort out these issues, having a rant won't sort it out nor will pestering the RAU or Major Fox.

[dromia]

Unfortunately the NRA have known about this and have done nothing not even advised clubs of the outcome and the impact this will have on their shooting. They have had the time and the engagement but done nothing, not a rant just an observation on what has happened.

We as a club have lost all trust in the NRA's ability and willingness to assist on this issue so the only route open is to try and understand and sort it ourselves.

[John MH]

Unfortunately the NRA have known about this and have done nothing not even advised clubs of the outcome and the impact this will have on their shooting. They have had the time and the engagement but done nothing, not a rant just an observation on what has happened.

We as a club have lost all trust in the NRA's ability and willingness to assist on this issue so the only route open is to try and understand and sort it ourselves.

I understand your frustration but in reality the NRA is the only body the the DIO/DSEA DRLSC will liaise with unless a direct approach is made to the RAU or Range Officer who made the rules, understanding that it is their right to make the rules for their range within the guidance given.

[AR15]

''The bit in red above is the problem, what NGB has ETR practices (read Courses of Fire) in its Rule Book?''
So you are saying that there should be documented practices to outline the mechanics of how a target is presented? And the fact that the NGB hasn't got it precludes the use of a given mechanism?
I presume the exact mechanics of manual target exposure and presentation in the butts is written down in the handbook then. The actual process, ie Targets must be presented manually using the mechanical system installed & provided on the given range. The operator must be fully conversant with pulling down a counterweight or winding a handle or holding up a board and turning it 90 degrees after a few seconds?
Is there a section that outlines what a static target must do too? Just in case I'm not covered to shoot a stick in at 100 yards that is

The NRA have done nothing.....

[dromia]

Then in the plan has to be to get another organisation established that will get recognised by the MoD that will look after the interest of civilian shooters on MoD ranges.

That won't happen to solve this now but it has to be the plan in the medium term so in the interim we are on our own yet again, there is nothing else we can do other than just lie down and die. I'm sure that Iainwr is doing his best as he sad he would bit this should have been headed of at the pass ages ago, at the end of the day the NRA don't have the resources. They are not fit for our purposes at this point in time, not a rant just what it is, it is not my opinion it is how it is.

[John MH]

''The bit in red above is the problem, what NGB has ETR practices (read Courses of Fire) in its Rule Book?''
So you are saying that there should be documented practices to outline the mechanics of how a target is presented? And the fact that the NGB hasn't got it precludes the use of a given mechanism?
I presume the exact mechanics of manual target exposure and presentation in the butts is written down in the handbook then. The actual process, ie Targets must be presented manually using the mechanical system installed & provided on the given range. The operator must be fully conversant with pulling down a counterweight or winding a handle or holding up a board and turning it 90 degrees after a few seconds?
Is there a section that outlines what a static target must do too? Just in case I'm not covered to shoot a stick in at 100 yards that is

The NRA have done nothing.....

Its about a recognised 'Course of Fire'; the Military are not allowed to make it up as they go along and all Courses of Fire are documented in the AOSP suite of publications which takes a soldier through a recognised progressive training and assessment system for what ever weapon system is being used. Why then should a Civilian Club be able to make it us as they go along? The new rules introduced under RSPL 13/02 were agreed with the NGBs to satisfy the requirements of DSEA and for them to be able to demonstrate that an auditable 'Safe System' is in place, the audit trail here is a recognised practice (CoF) as laid down in a NGB Rule Book.

Its got nothing to do with how the target is presented.