Use of electronic targetry on MOD ranges now banned

[AR15]

Yep same Major. I talked to him around the same time as you.
I have just talked with the Range Control Room and been fed a load of guff about the new SARTS system that has the UK military training manual programmed into it and cannot be uninstalled.
It works from Wifi, Blutooth etc...
I think its unlikely that the training program is stored on the targeting hardware at each range (that would possibly represent a security risk given the remote locations of some of these ranges), rather I would imagine its installed on the control device used at the time.
I find it hard to understand why my phone can't make a few targets go up and down with the right app on it, minus the UK military training program installed of course.
I was also told that the new system is unbreakable, really robust and that it will save the MOD a fortune.
So conflicting information and Landmarc's position is that they do what the MOD tells them.

The new system seems to be able to do anything and everything except anything a civilian would want to do with it of course.

[dromia]

It is lack of will on behalf of Landmarc and the MoD that is the issue not the technology.

[John MH]

Lots of 'Tax Payers' money invested in a new target system that has not been without its problems. The systems are still under warranty from Lockheed Martin and I suspect the DIO does not want their new target system operated by RCOs not trained in its use.

Extract From CTA Range Orders (Dated 14 Jan 13):

12. Civilian Clubs and Police Forces. Civilian Clubs and Police Forces may use this range with the permission of the Range Officer, provided they are also properly licensed by DIO. All civilian weapons must comply fully with current Home Office restrictions and be properly licensed by the appropriate Chief Constable. All Civilian Club shooting must be limited to static targets and firing points/postures only.

Now if they are interpreting 'static targets' to be fixed 'stick in' or Hythe Frame mounted targets and the CGR Electro Mechanical Targets or new SARTS as 'moving' then it’s clear that they cannot be used. I have looked for a similar clause in other Range Orders at other locations (they are nearly all available on the MoD Intranet) and could not easily find anything similar with respect to static targets. If this clause is to be universally applied then the use of ETR/AMS/CGR will be pretty much pointless in the future. Use of traditional Gallery Ranges with Hythe Frames should be unaffected.

Another thing to note is that it appears that the ‘Shoots’ or practices programmed into SARTS are all taken from the AOSP Publications and the system cannot be used in a ‘manual’ mode like the old system it replaced.

AOSP shoots are under strict configuration control managed by SO2 Tgt. No unauthorised programming will be permitted for Fixed Template Ranges.

Seems quite reasonable as only AOSP practices are authorised for the military.

Reading the Training Safety Monthly Reports (a monthly digest of range operation issues available on the Mod Intranet) there have been lots of teething trouble with the SARTS and it is currently undergoing another package of work to fit 4,248 SAAB location of hit and miss (LOMAH) sensors to prime contractor Lockheed Martin UK supplied SARTS target units.

[John MH]

Extract from Defence Land Ranges Safety Committee RANGE SAFETY POLICY LETTER 13/02– CIVILIAN USE OF MoD RANGES dated 30 May 13

20. Civilian RCO – Civilian rifle clubs. To ensure safe conduct live fire practices by the membership of a civilian club, the Chairman is to appoint a current RCO who has been formally qualified on the appropriate Non-MOD Organisation (NMO) RCO course to conduct the Clubs shooting and to exercise the Chairman’s responsibility for ensuring safe conduct of the practice by the membership.

The procedure and qualification requirements for civilians to exercise the full responsibilities of a civilian club RCO on MoD land ranges are as follows:

a. Club Chairmen wishing members of their club to use a MoD range will nominate to the appropriate National Governing Body (NGB) members who they consider are competent to be RCOs by way of any previous qualification or experience.

b. Upon the recommendation of the Club Chairman the appropriate NGB will, if satisfied, issue to the club a certificate listing by name those members which they accept as being competent to conduct the standard firing practices listed in the rules of the appropriate NGB together with an NGB RCO card giving the details of the practices the RCO is eligible to conduct. On receipt of the certificate, the secretary of the club concerned will forward a copy, signed by each authorised RCO, to the RAU and issue each RCO with a “MoD RCO Card”.

c. The RCO must be in possession of both an in date NGB RCO card and an MoD RCO card identifying the individual by name and their qualification to conduct firing practices.

d. RCO’s are deemed qualified if they have:

(i) Current or former military service (who has not left the service for more than 2 years), either regular or reserve, through which an appropriate military RCO qualification has been achieved.

or

(ii) Achieved a satisfactory standard on the appropriate NGB course.

The bit in bold above maybe the sticking point as I am unaware of any ETR shoots in the ‘Practices’ of any recognised NGB, so there is then no need for civilians to use ETR Targets.

Having just spoken to the Defence Land Ranges Safety staff at Abbeywood it is their understanding that it is down to the individual 'Range Officer' responsible for the Range Complex to decide who is allowed to use what range and how as long as the rules in DLRSC RANGE SAFETY POLICY LETTER 13/02 are complied with. If he or she deems that a Civilian is not qualifed to use the SARTS then thats it, without the relevant training on the equipment how can you demonstrate that you are quailfied. At the end of the day the bit in bold above will get you anyway as there are no NGB shooting practices that require the use of an ETR or SARTS Range so if this is only a local policy you can expect it to filter out to all other ETR/AMS and SARTS ranges accross the country.

[AR15]

I'm slowly getting to the bottom of this Adam.
Sennybridge, Warcop, Lydd, Warminster etc.... can all be used by civilians and indeed civilians assisted in testing with Lockheed Martin too.

[DanTheMan]

The bit in bold above maybe the sticking point as I am unaware of any ETR shoots in the ‘Practices’ of any recognised NGB, so there is then no need for civilians to use ETR Targets.

The Kemble competition is shot on ETR at ASH, we have shot the new SARTS at Lydd with the FCSA and I guess they would be badly affected as a lot of their shoots include ETR. Could this all be a bit of a misunderstanding like the temporary civilian tracer ban ?

[John MH]

The bit in bold above maybe the sticking point as I am unaware of any ETR shoots in the ‘Practices’ of any recognised NGB, so there is then no need for civilians to use ETR Targets.

The Kemble competition is shot on ETR at ASH, we have shot the new SARTS at Lydd with the FCSA and I guess they would be badly affected as a lot of their shoots include ETR. Could this all be a bit of a misunderstanding like the temporary civilian tracer ban ?

The Kemble, cancelled this year becasue you cannot reprogramme SARTS on a fixed template range, is a LPSC shoot and LPSC are not a NGB.

If you were able to programme SARTS targets at Hythe was that on a FFR?

If the rules in Defence Land Ranges Safety Committee RANGE SAFETY POLICY LETTER 13/02– CIVILIAN USE OF MoD RANGES dated 30 May 13 are strictly applied then ETR shoots could easily be denied to civilians unless the practices are recognised by the NRA. They may be a little more relaxed at Hythe but if this is raised by the NRA with the DLRSC it could result in a nationally applied restriction on SARTS use by civilians as this would be the easiest option for them to adopt.

Full DLRSC Letter here: Civilain Use of MoD Ranges

[dromia]

From Paul's post and speaking to him it would appear at present to be an issue for ranges coming under the purview of Major Fox at Catterick.

Evidently Andrew Mercer was at a meeting last year when all this was discussed, however there was no communication from the NRA about the introduction of the new system and the benefits its use could bring to civilian shooters one would have thought that it should have been shouted from the roof tops.

The wording that JohnMH has put up would give people like Major Fox wiggle room for interpretation.

My discipline is handloading for old guns and getting them to shoot as well as they can, the electronic targetry was/is perfect for that. Also shooting old military rifles with blade sights really comes into its own on Fig 11s on differing distances at field firing ranges. Evidently as I don't have a governing body for this I'm goosed.

Still steady away and keep the faith but it seems that we will need to do it ourselves as there is no support especially as the NRA have been informed of the new targetry but appear to have no view or policy about its use by civilian shooters.

[dromia]

On the point of training, if that is what is required then lets set it up and get it done. I don't think any club would have a problem with that.

Unfortunately Major is unclear about which bits of the policy he is applying to ban civilian shooters from using the equipment which other clubs appear to blythely using on other ranges with no problem.

[John MH]

From my perspective he's the only one following the rules laid down in the Defence Land Ranges Safety Committee RANGE SAFETY POLICY LETTER 13/02– CIVILIAN USE OF MoD RANGES dated 30 May 13.

There is no standard format for Range Standing Orders as they all appear to vary and the sections on Civilian Use are all different. A question I would ask to satisfy myself in his position would be 'Does the NRA RCO Course cover the operation of ETR or SARTS Ranges and is this assessed during the course?' I think I know the answer to that question. I would also ask if the NRA qualification covers MMTR as I would argue that the Running Deer range at Bisley is not a standard layout MMTR.


Probably need to get the Roberts and Roupell put in the Bisely Bible and then we would be covered to some extent. smile2