Nigel bloody Farage sinks hope of pistol ban repeal

[HALODIN]

Thanks. It's healthy and mature to talk about issues, I'm firmly in the camp of nothing should be marked as taboo. Quite right, I'll change my mind if there's compelling information to the contrary.

Let's not start with base insults shall we? The gcn only need to look on these forums for enough material to push for a ban you lot are downright hostile when someone's opinion doesn't match your own.
Halodin has simply expressed an opinion, if you disagree explain why, you might change his mind.

SimG, that's clearly not what he said, you should be a politician. Suggesting a psychological evaluation is in no way supporting a full ban is it? Would you say no to an evaluation if it were the only way to save your sport? What about if it were the only way to get handguns back?

Alpha1, FAC in 7-9 months is about the minimum. 6 months to become a full cub member, then however long it takes to issue. How long have you been shooting, haven't learned the rules yet? ;-)

[HALODIN]

All of the steps currently required to hold a firearms certificate are very good IMO, but they could be better. The problem is the referees are chosen by the applicant and just because you haven't been a criminal, doesn't mean you won't become one or that you were ever caught. As you say, people's mental well being can change and I still believe there should be something in place to catch those that fall short of the mark. Someone mentioned earlier that in one of the killing sprees, the police were notified by the club secretary that someone was acting erratic, so at least in this case there were warning signs. Is it the duty of the club secretary to look for odd behavior?

There are already things in place to try and prevent firearms ( legally getting ) into the hands of people unfit to hold a licence. You need referees. You have a criminal background check . The police can check your medical records. there is no perfect system. And as I have said peoples mental state can change from day to day, how do you monitor that. ?

People go to the doctor with mental health problems looking help. Someone looking a firearm would not admit mental health problems . Do you see the difference. ?

[HALODIN]

Excellent.

It may be worth looking at this from a slightly different angle, more akin to what Dromia mentioned a few pages before.

Instead of infighting why don't we ALL (I know many already are) become more proactive, more letters etc... but also recruiting grass roots members, many clubs will be near a University of a cadet force (iirc Dromia your club already tries to help cadets?) Why not recruit and persuade the young? The uni club I belong to would be nowhere without the support they have received from the local shooting club, the have a discounted student membership rate and when possible accommodate an afternoon solely for students to shoot. In 2 years we have risen from 4 to nearly 70 members, most of whom have never touched a gun before or have limited exposure through cadets. We promote EVERY discipline possible, what we can't shoot on the mainland we organise trips to the channel islands to do.

THIS is the the way forward, recruit young, and support them, sure a number may not stay on but at least we've begun the process of educating others in firearms and the reality of the situation. We have since started working with friends in various political societies to get debates going, the Classical Liberals held a debate last time to which I was invited as an opening speaker on the matter of gun control, of the 40 or so people in the room only 5 had shot before, we had an overwhelmingly positive response and as a result I am trying to organise a large one with Labour and Conservative students.

As the old cliche goes, the government have so far won battles, they took our SLRs, handguns and ridiculously restricted what else we can own, but they have yet to win the war, and only we can turn the tide.

[ordnance]

The problem is the referees are chosen by the applicant and just because you haven't been a criminal, doesn't mean you won't become one or that you were ever caught

Exactly you can not predict what people will do. What would you suggest a lie detector test, I shouldn't be giving you ideas.

If people that had mental health problems in their lifetime were prevented from owning firearms , plenty on this forum would not have them.

The facts and figures around Mental Health in the UK are alarming.
•1 in 4 people will experience some kind of mental health problem in the course of a year
•Mixed anxiety and depression is the most common mental disorder in Britain
•Women are more likely to have been treated for a mental health problem than men
•About 10% of children have a mental health problem at any one time
•Depression affects 1 in 5 older people
•Suicides rates show that British men are three times as likely to die by suicide than British women
•Self-harm statistics for the UK show one of the highest rates in Europe: 400 per 100,000 population

Someone mentioned earlier that in one of the killing sprees, the police were notified by the club secretary that someone was acting erratic, so at least in this case there were warning signs. Is it the duty of the club secretary to look for odd behavior?

If that's true then it was the police that did not do their job, What do you suggest we do about that. ?

[Demonic69]

If that's true then it was the police that did not do their job, What do you suggest we do about that. ?

I'm pretty sure the police didn't do their job in any of the spree shootings from the last 30 or so years. From what I've read there were good reasons for each of the perpetrators to have their firearms confiscated and the police were alerted to each case. Probably boils down to lack of resources and political pandering focussing the forces on the more popular areas of crime; speeding, anti-social behaviour etc. Though I'm sure SIM will disagree.
Resolving that is easy, make the higher ups of the police accountable when things like this aren't acted upon.

[HALODIN]

There's clearly a threshold of what is and what isn't acceptable in terms of mental health issues and holding a firearms certificate. I'm not suggesting anyone who has suffered from some of these issues should be barred from owning a firearm, but someone who has self harmed has crossed a line and may do so again or perhaps worse. There was a man in our village who went in to his boating shed with a shotgun and killed himself late last year, perhaps with more involvement from qualified professionals someone could have saved him.

All I want is to preserve my shooting rights and keep my family safe. I'm not looking for perfection, but if the system can be improved then it should be.

Exactly you can not predict what people will do. What would you suggest a lie detector test, I shouldn't be giving you ideas.

If people that had mental health problems in their lifetime were prevented from owning firearms , plenty on this forum would not have them.

The facts and figures around Mental Health in the UK are alarming.
•1 in 4 people will experience some kind of mental health problem in the course of a year
•Mixed anxiety and depression is the most common mental disorder in Britain
•Women are more likely to have been treated for a mental health problem than men
•About 10% of children have a mental health problem at any one time
•Depression affects 1 in 5 older people
•Suicides rates show that British men are three times as likely to die by suicide than British women
•Self-harm statistics for the UK show one of the highest rates in Europe: 400 per 100,000 population

If that's true then it was the police that did not do their job, What do you suggest we do about that. ?

[ordnance]

There was a man in our village who went in to his boating shed with a shotgun and killed himself late last year, perhaps with more involvement from qualified professionals someone could have saved him.

Do you not think that people that have a mental health problem, could avoid going to the doctor for help if they think it could result in them losing their FAC. ? He could have jumped of a high building, took tablets , stab himself and other numerous ways of killing himself. I don't see the fact that he shot himself has to do with anything.

All I want is to preserve my shooting rights and keep my family safe. I'm not looking for perfection, but if the system can be improved then it should be.

I think we all want that. What we don't want is measures that that don't do any good.

David Cameron. On the Cumbria shootings.

He added: "You can't legislate to stop a switch flicking in someone's head and this sort of dreadful action taking place

[Christel]

Scenario*:

Isolated farmhouse with surrounding farmland.
Mother and Father lives there, Son and Daughter visit occasionally. The only one who is licensed is the Father, two bunny bashing rifles, they are kept securely however the keys to the rifle cabinet are kept in the top drawer of the Father's desk in his study and everybody who works on the farm know that. Everybody who has access to the farmhouse can access the keys/cabinet/rifles to shoot those pesky rabbits.
One day somebody grabs one of those rifles and shoots whoeever is present on the farm. It is a right blood bath and not a pretty sight for the postman who discovers the scene.

Going back over family history, Father and Mother have a tendency to take their faith a tad too far, Daughter has a history of depression, Son has alcohol problems. As with life in general everywhere I am sure there were other issues, on the farm, with the people working there, with the animals...you get my drift, I am sure.

So who did it and how to prevent a situation like that?
If you ask me, the verdict is still out on who did it and it is absolutely impossible to prevent a situation like that, if people want to kill, they will kill, be their preferred method a baseball bat, kitchen knife, rifle, injection, whatever is out there that can kill people.

I, for one, am not going to subject myself to more tests and evaluations in order to shoot targets, just because there is a possibility that someone somewhere "snaps".
Even if that means I have to give up my sport, I will fight hard for it not to happen however ultimately if I have to give it up to avoid more tests and evaluations then I will.

The Scenario* described here has no connection to real life and the legality of the rifles being kept as described is not really important.

[SevenSixTwo]

What about religion? Is talking to an imaginary friend a mental illness? What if he talks back?...

[HALODIN]

I suspect most people don't go for help, they just stew on it, especially men. We're brought up to be able to deal with our own problems and take responsibility and lets face it, men don't offer other men emotional support very often. I'd imagine it's seen as a quick way to go.

I find it difficult to believe nothing can be done. Is that what you think?

Do you not think that people that have a mental health problem, could avoid going to the doctor for help if they think it could result in them losing their FAC. ? He could have jumped of a high building, took tablets , stab himself and other numerous ways of killing himself. I don't see the fact that he shot himself has to do with anything.

I think we all want that. What we don't want is measures that that don't do any good.

David Cameron. On the Cumbria shootings.

He added: "You can't legislate to stop a switch flicking in someone's head and this sort of dreadful action taking place