A lot of NDs

[Chuck]

The point being that there is usually threatening and posturing before most closure to violence , that is the time to draw your handgun and make ready(by make ready I mean point it at your assailants centre mass) , if it's a surprise stab in the ribs without pre indicators there is little you can do training or not , and the carry condition of your handgun is irrelevant !

And potentially get done for brandishing a firearm, if you have to draw and point it then you should shoot it - If you have to think about it you probably should not shoot. As said, each situation is different.

There is always a point of no return (no pun intended) but it is NOT the movies and one knife wound will not necessarily drop you down or kill you.

Also there's a lot to be said for keeping your distance, why is it so hard to back away - more time, more distance and more defence in court should you actually slot some scrote who deserves what he gets (Castle Doctrine not withstanding of course)!

Blu's illustration is really good. A lot depends on HOW you carry concealed and down the cheeks of your bum isn't recommended.

Time difference between drawing from hip holster concealed under jacket -v- unconcealed from hip holster: 1/10th - 1/5th of a second - electronically timed.

Time taken to step back draw from holster and place 1 shot each on two targets centre mass - ONE second! Same or less for two shots on one target centre mass. Blu, why not try it and see I reckon you can do that.

[honsu]

Knife vs Gun

part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 8cvk06hfVs


part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... DPlWAq-11I


:flag5: zzzzom zzzzom zzzzom

[Dougan]

This is all very interesting...

...and makes me wonder whether a person who isn't extensively trained could even be put at a disadvantage by carrying...due to the possibility that they may focus too much on drawing their gun, when evasion or using your hands (or boots) may be a better option in the first instance...

...especially if the attacker is up close - If someone has already gone for a knife or gun, then you're playing catch-up, and unless you are 'Quick Draw M'Graw' then you're buggered.

Genuine question: What happens if you grab a semi-auto pistol by the barrel and the person fires it...?

[kennyc]

This is all very interesting...

...and makes me wonder whether a person who isn't extensively trained could even be put at a disadvantage by carrying...due to the possibility that they may focus too much on drawing their gun, when evasion or using your hands (or boots) may be a better option in the first instance...

...especially if the attacker is up close - If someone has already gone for a knife or gun, then you're playing catch-up, and unless you are 'Quick Draw M'Graw' then you're buggered.

Genuine question: What happens if you grab a semi-auto pistol by the barrel and the person fires it...?

it go's Bang! .....once........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5sK8TE1nq4

[ordnance]

What happens if you grab a semi-auto pistol by the barrel and the person fires it...?

If you grab and hold the slide then it won't reload so it will be a single shot.

[Dougan]

Thank you both...

...as I say this is a very interesting topic for someone with very little pistol experience

[froggy]

What happens if you grab a semi-auto pistol by the barrel and the person fires it...?
If you grab and hold the slide then it won't reload so it will be a single shot.

Yep - Hence on a hostile pistol disarming, the drill is :
- slapping the bottom of the mag to either push it back in place & tactilely check it has not droped in case it has been dislodged during the grab,
- in all cases rack the slide back to eject the discharged brass and feed a live "fresh"round in the chamber.

whether a person who isn't extensively trained could even be put at a disadvantage by carrying...

It does not take a lot of practice to get into the habit to always place the weak hand on the chest to potentially push away an opponent while the strong one de-holster.

[Chuck]

This is all very interesting...

...and makes me wonder whether a person who isn't extensively trained could even be put at a disadvantage by carrying...due to the possibility that they may focus too much on drawing their gun, when evasion or using your hands (or boots) may be a better option in the first instance...

...especially if the attacker is up close - If someone has already gone for a knife or gun, then you're playing catch-up, and unless you are 'Quick Draw M'Graw' then you're buggered.

Genuine question: What happens if you grab a semi-auto pistol by the barrel and the person fires it...?

Morning Dougan, tests have shown that you actually respond FASTER if you play catch up...honest.

it does not need extensive training, it needs professional training - "real world training for real world situations" as we say.

when evasion or using your hands (or boots) may be a better option in the first instance... Well actually that IS in theory the sequence of events, though AVOIDANCE should come first. Drawing a gun IS a LAST RESORT action, drawing and pointing to scare someone gets you done! You are of course making the fatal error of assuming your aggressor will be weaker than you and thus you can overpower them - but what if you cannot! Ask any woman, elderly or infirm people, the gun is the force equaliser. Not everyone has boots and fists and martial arts / Krav maga etc takes so much longer to become proficient in. Ask any thug if he would rather be shot in the face or punched in the face: most of these people can take a good hit, and what if they are drugged up - you're just going to get killed tired.

A CONCEALED firearm is a deterrent insomuch you MIGHT have the gun so to quote a phrase "Do ya feel LUCKY punk" because that is the decision they would be making.

The biggest danger is the clown who does a $60 course after work to get a permit, stands at the range in a triangle stance once in a blue moon and unloads hundreds of rounds into a target in his/her own time with a gun bought because it looks cool/everyone else has one/ it's the "best" etc and thinks he is practicing or competent in defensive firearms - when neither is true. Denial is a killer. Defensive firearms training is NOT target practice, target practice is what it is.

If there was enough interest on here I could organise a pistol course in the USA and we could all do this stuff: what if, shooting, the works.

Oh and grabbing the gun by the barrel, if they were that close why not step back a few times, shoot from the hip "so to speak" (speed rock).

Your comments are valid of course, weapon retention, well dropping your firing hand elbow onto your holstered pistol works well too - as does not getting into the situation in the first place: guns do not replace common sense and observation. If someone grabs your gun it's your own fault.

And yes ONE bang! Should be enough if it hits the other person.

[tackb]

The point being that there is usually threatening and posturing before most closure to violence , that is the time to draw your handgun and make ready(by make ready I mean point it at your assailants centre mass) , if it's a surprise stab in the ribs without pre indicators there is little you can do training or not , and the carry condition of your handgun is irrelevant !

And potentially get done for brandishing a firearm, if you have to draw and point it then you should shoot it - If you have to think about it you probably should not shoot. As said, each situation is different.

There is always a point of no return (no pun intended) but it is NOT the movies and one knife wound will not necessarily drop you down or kill you.

Also there's a lot to be said for keeping your distance, why is it so hard to back away - more time, more distance and more defence in court should you actually slot some scrote who deserves what he gets (Castle Doctrine not withstanding of course)!

Blu's illustration is really good. A lot depends on HOW you carry concealed and down the cheeks of your bum isn't recommended.

Time difference between drawing from hip holster concealed under jacket -v- unconcealed from hip holster: 1/10th - 1/5th of a second - electronically timed.

Time taken to step back draw from holster and place 1 shot each on two targets centre mass - ONE second! Same or less for two shots on one target centre mass. Blu, why not try it and see I reckon you can do that.

I disagree , to actually shoot someone should be the last resort ? my take is this , if your potential assailant has a drawn knife that is the time to draw your weapon and aim centre mass whilst backing up to create space , if your assailant continues to close the space between you then shoot them ? if they allow you to create space and move yourself to safety then hopefully the situation has diffused without anyone dying ?

in a life threatening situation I feel that your handgun should be in your hand pointing at the threat asap then you only have to take the fire or not decision ?

ultimately its a last resort and you should do all you can to avoid such situations in the first place?

this is all hypothetical for me because I've never been in the situation (thank god) although the same applies if you have to thump someone, try and back up get away etc. but if violence is unavoidable then I find it's advised to get a good one in first ? I've received a good punch on the nose and it takes a lot of the fight out of you straight away!

[Chuck]

disagree , to actually shoot someone should be the last resort ? my take is this , if your potential assailant has a drawn knife that is the time to draw your weapon and aim centre mass

by all means disagree BUT it IS the last resort when all else has failed (yes castle Doctrine and all that) to be pedantic. OK the knife is drawn but is he threatening you with it, HOW?? By using it to reinforce an argument or demand but no direct threat (like I am gonna stab you MFR or pointing it in your face and threatening to cut you etc).. If you GENUINELY fear for your life you can shoot -but you WILL have to justify it in court to 12 people who will be all sad that you shot some god fearing, church going homey! Oh and self defence can be a murder rap oh so quickly - some states execute you for that!

Also it will NOT be the first time that the prosecution argue the little sh1t you did us all a favour by disposing of "did not have a chance" because you were well trained and could have avoided the issue by running away

All of a sudden that gun weighs a ton when you strap it on - all those responsibilities liabilities etc etc..