Challenging unsafe behaviour

[IainWR]

I suppose trained service personnel have the advantage of being drilled in safe firearms handling and it's second nature to them.

Actually, the problem is that servicemen have the disadvantage of being drilled. If you are drilled, and something goes wrong with the drill, then the occurence is one step nearer. This is why mostly it's experienced pilots who land wheels-up or similar. I've been that serviceman. I was saved at 30 ft to go by my Sgt crewman (every officer should have a competent NCO to look after him).

Civilians are individually, personally and non-negotiably responsible for the safety of their own firearm and ammunition, and they have the privilege of unrestricted access to both, which other than on ops is not the case for servicemen. Therefore, civilians cannot rely on drills, they are required to think about what they are doing, and the rules are written on that basis.

Iain

[Charlotte the flyer]

As witnessed by myself on a military range many years ago :

For inspection port arms
Ease springs
BANG
OI!

It was in the next lane to me, a cadet was firing an L98 with an adult coach supervising. Either the coach didn't check the chamber/mag correctly or he told the cadet to fire the round off. I don't know which it was, neither is an desirable outcome.

[tackb]

I wonder what the safety stats are civvies versus military (non operational as that's a totally different environment )

[IainWR]

I wonder what the safety stats are civvies versus military (non operational as that's a totally different environment )

Actually, ops isn't a totally different environment. The first edict issued by General Franks, Commander 7(US) Corps, with 1 (Br) and 18 (Fr) Divs attached, minutes after the end of Gulf War 1, was "Not one more life to be lost". The war itself was a walkover, but the death toll (on our side) from our own errors was almost the same as from enemy action. Several of those were due to mishandling of personal weapons. I was deeply involved in a more serious one involving blue-on-blue air action. Just because you are at war does not mean the rules don't apply.

Iain

[IainWR]

I wonder what the safety stats are civvies versus military (non operational as that's a totally different environment )

In my personal experience, I can remember immediately being present for three military range cockups (one of which was mine) and six civilian range cockups (one of which was mine) in which shots were fired in circumstances when they should not have been. Given the relative time on range I have civ to mil I will take a WAG that on the basis of my experience the civvies are about twenty times as safe as the military.

Iain

[IainWR]

Alpha 1:

WAG: Wild assed guess

[tackb]

I wonder what the safety stats are civvies versus military (non operational as that's a totally different environment )

Actually, ops isn't a totally different environment. The first edict issued by General Franks, Commander 7(US) Corps, with 1 (Br) and 18 (Fr) Divs attached, minutes after the end of Gulf War 1, was "Not one more life to be lost". The war itself was a walkover, but the death toll from our own errors was almost the same as from enemy action. Several of those were due to mishandling of personal weapons. I was deeply involved in a more serious one involving blue-on-blue air action. Just because you are at war does not mean the rules don't apply.

Iain

Sorry I didn't explain myself well , what I meant was when operational there must be incredible stress and a generally a very dangerous environment and on top of that weapons and ammo have to be together and at hand 24-7 so the chances of Nd's increase I'd imagine ?

[Steve E]

I wonder what the safety stats are civvies versus military (non operational as that's a totally different environment )

I don't know what the stats would be, but in forty years of shooting I have seen more accidental/negligent discharges carried out by members of the Armed Forces/Police than by civilians. In the twenty two years that I spent in the military I saw at least two accidental/negligent discharges a year. I also witnessed the complete and utter disregard for range safety of any description by members of two police forces on their own ranges, one of which resulted in the shooting in the back of one police officer by another.

As Iain has said, the the Armed Forces are drilled but the system often fails.
In the civilian world it is prohibited to 'aim' or dry fire a firearm unless you are on the firing point and it is safe to fire, yet in the Military it was/is acceptable behaviour to aim at the target or across the range when behind the firing point with an optically sighted rifle because you had been cleared NSPs carried out, yet servicemen still have negligent discharges.

[IainWR]

TackB

A fair comment, but I'm not sure you are right. On ops, mostly you load your weapon but do not make ready. I used to get into trouble over this in Ireland. Our bosses were so afraid of NDs that we were required to carry our weapons unloaded. I followed orders until on night 2 in theatre I bent over to solve a minor aircraft problem, the mag fell out of the stowage on my jacket, bounced on the floor of a very complicated aircraft in the dark, shed 9 rounds and put us out of action for two hours while we found the missing rounds. After that I ignored orders and put the mag where it belonged - in the gun. People used to object, I told them to do what they thought was a good idea and I would do what I thought was good. In ground action, only when approaching action do you make ready well out of hearing of the enemy, and that's planned. If you get ambushed, indeed all bets are off, but if you are alive at the end that's when training cuts in and at some point a competent NCO will insist that all weapons are cleared iaw the taught procedure.

And I know that's at odds with what I said about rules and war. My defence, Sir, (or Your Honour) is that I was thinking, not following drills.

[tackb]

TackB

A fair comment, but I'm not sure you are right. On ops, mostly you load your weapon but do not make ready. I used to get into trouble over this in Ireland. Our bosses were so afraid of NDs that we were required to carry our weapons unloaded. I followed orders until on night 2 in theatre I bent over to solve a minor aircraft problem, the mag fell out of the stowage on my jacket, bounced on the floor of a very complicated aircraft in the dark, shed 9 rounds and put us out of action for two hours while we found the missing rounds. After that I ignored orders and put the mag where it belonged - in the gun. People used to object, I told them to do what they thought was a good idea and I would do what I thought was good. In ground action, only when approaching action do you make ready well out of hearing of the enemy, and that's planned. If you get ambushed, indeed all bets are off, but if you are alive at the end that's when training cuts in and at some point a competent NCO will insist that all weapons are cleared iaw the taught procedure.

And I know that's at odds with what I said about rules and war. My defence, Sir, (or Your Honour) is that I was thinking, not following drills.

Fair enough , you have experience I don't , but I think I agree with your thinking , if I was in a hostile environment with people that mean me harm then my rifle and ammo would be together or very close to each other all the time !