C2R bore cleaner - A curmudgeons review.

[dromia]

I have spent the past couple of days trying out Tim’s new bore cleaning product.

I have to confess that I am a bit conservative when it comes to bore cleaning products and a curmudgeon when it comes to the plethora of wonder products that we shooters get bombarded with in the name of corporate profit. I came to the conclusion many years ago that most gun cleaning stuff was an expensive rip off where you were paying for a label, not some magical cleaning liquid/cream/oil/foam etc. As an industry, shooting re-invents and re-packages the wheel more often and more regularly than almost any other and anything truly new to shooting is a rare beast indeed.

For many years I used Hoppes No9 as a barrel cleaner, no use on copper but a good fouling remover and if left for a while in the barrel it had enough creeping properties to lift lead. Hoppes however wasn’t cheap and I needed some volume cleaner at a reasonable price that I could put into tins and soak gun bits in as I was always attracted to things old and not shiny.

In Hatchers notebook I came across the old Frankford arsenal bore cleaner recipe and concocted my own version of this, later I came across Ed’s Harris’s version of the same recipe and have used that as a powder/primer fouling/general cleaner ever since and have never looked back. For copper it was a no brainer, ammonia dissolves copper so that is what I used for copper fouling. As fouling builds up in layers copper, then carbon, then copper and so on, Ed’s Red and Ammonia were applied with wet patches layer about cleaning between each wet patch with a dry one. I’d heard that ammonia could harm steel so I only left the ammonia soaking for no more than 10 minutes. This method has served me very well over the years especially as I am into old out of production rifles and cleaning them is a big part of any acquisition.

The process could be time consuming though, as with the heavy copper build up, common in most 20th century military firearms, the 10 minute time limit on the ammonia meant that repeated timed applications were needed to get that copper out.

So a few years ago I cast about to see if there were any new cleaners on the market that would shift copper and be able to be left in the barrel so that it would work away in the darkness of the night without me being on hand to swipe it out every ten minutes or so. To cut a long story short I found Wipe Out and have been using their Patch Out and Accelerator successfully for 5 or 6 years now on any heavily fouled barrels I get in.

As I mainly shoot and sell old guns from muzzle loaders to mid 20th century military bolt actions I am not cleaning bench rest guns for 1/16th of a minute angle of accuracy. However I mainly shoot cast bullets in these rifles as cast gives me better accuracy than jacketed and at a lower cost. In the vast majority of rifles cast bullets won’t shoot well until every vestige of copper is removed from the barrel so getting as far back to the bare metal as possible is important to me when breaking in a rifle for cast shooting. Also for my firearms business good clean barrels on my stock rifles is very important, as looking at a barrel and assessing its condition is a key part of any prospective buyers inspection and a dirty barrel can be the difference ‘tween a sale and no sale. So speed of cleaning is important here as I don’t want new stock hanging around whilst the barrel cleans, I want it in the racks for clients to see.

So with my misanthropic view of gun cleaning products it was with some trepidation that I tried out C2R. I have to confess that the title put me off from the start, instead of it being the chemical formula for its key ingredient it seems to be an abbreviation of Copper Carbon Remover, hence the C2 (twice). However as C2R is manufactured in the UK I will forgive the text type nomenclature, it has to be called something.

C2R comes in a robust plastic bottle in 3.52 and 5.28 flozs (approx) sizes along with a capped spout and ordinary top, the label has the instructions written on it but in too small print for my eyes, fortunately there is also a printed sheet provided in the bag with a far more reader friendly print size.

Having cut the top off the spout I fitted it to the bottle, placed a Russian Capture Erhfurt K98, that had been used that day to fire 100 rounds or so of dirty corrosive eastern bloc 7.92 x 57 military ball, into the cleaning vice and re-read the instructions. I was keen to try this rifle first as a unique part of the C2R cleaning process is that after applying the cleaner it is swabbed out with patches soaked in ordinary tap water. Well as we all know when using ammunition such as this with the primers leaving a corrosive hygroscopic residue in the barrel, water is the best cleaner as it neutralises this fouling. Therefore the C2R process should clean the bore and neutralise the fouling at the same time. Also this rifle was new in and the barrel was very gungy. I had no idea of when it had been last cleaned or even what the condition of the bore was, all I did was pull it through at the range with some Ed’s Red, dry patched it and then set to. Actually it shot very well dropping the 400 yrd mover with some regularity once I’d got the range set and the lead worked out

The instructions state that the cleaner should be applied with a wetted patch but I used a nylon bore brush, I put the brush into the breech and applied the C2R, its viscosity is that of a slightly thick water and worked well when applying it to a brush as it doesn’t dribble off but clings to the bristles. This does mean that when wetting a patch it takes a little bit of working in with the spout nozzle to get a bit of 4x2 saturated. The wetted brush was pushed through the barrel and when emerging at the muzzle the white nylon bristles were black! The instructions recommend that you don’t push the patch fully out of the muzzle but leave some in the barrel so that you can take a tuck in the patch at the tip of the rod and apply more C2R, I just lifted the lid on my MTM patch catcher (what a handy little doofur that is) and dribbled some more C2R onto the bristle and pulled the rod back out and wiped the bristles dry on a rag.

I left the cleaner in contact for half an hour or so and in that time I found myself a small plastic tub and cut up a supply of 2 x 2 patches. These, when stabbed on to the end of a 30 calibre Dewey jag on a Dewey rod give nice tight fit in 30 cal or so bores and you know what they say, if its not tight then its not worth the effort. I placed the cut patches in the tub and added enough tap water to soak them, when thoroughly soaked I poured any excess water away.

After the thirty minutes or so I put the rod and jag into the breech and placed a wetted patch over the chamber, speared the centre with the jag point and pushed the patch through. Upon emerging from the muzzle the first third of the patch was a deep indigo blue feathering into a dark black for the rest of the patch, three further wet patches were used each one having progressively less blue at the tip and more black until the last one was a completely black patch. I then ran two dry patches down the barrel the first one coming out wet and grey with black lines where it had gone into the rifling, the second patch came out dry with black lines from the rifling.

I then repeated the whole process half a dozen times leaving the C2R in the bore from 15 to 30 minutes depending on what else I was doing at the time, on the fourth application I could not detect any blue on the patch it being a dark grey. By the final time the patch was still coming out with the odd light grey steaks on it but from my experience with these types of rifles you will never get patches to come out spotless.

I dried the bore but did not oil it, upon viewing the barrel looked clean and shiny which was a surprise, as you will never get that oft talked about mirror finish on these barrels but shiny is good. Viewing the muzzle with a strong light and a magnifying glass there was no sign of any copper. Now I know that isn’t a bore scope quality inspection but its how I look for a clean barrel within my bore cleaning parameters and I was more that happy with its results compared to my Ed’s Red/Ammonia regime and Patch Out/Accelerator. Did C2R clean better? I couldn’t tell but it certainly cleaned as good, this isn’t just based on patches or magnifying glasses but also by feel, when a barrel, in my experience, is getting clean and down to the metal a tight dry patch will “squeak” when pushed through the barrel, C2R gave me that “squeak”.

This particular rifle has now been on the bench for two days since cleaning and I have just pulled it through to see if there are any traces of rust that would come out if the cleaning regime had not removed the hygroscopic fouling from the old military ball, the patches came out clean. I will leave this bore un-oiled for a week or two and check regularly for signs of rusting.

I have also used C2R on new in Moisins, Enfields and Mausers that I was testing at the weekend and it has given similarly good results on them too. I have also used it on a couple of rifles that I am wishing to convert from jacketed to cast shooters and this will be a further good practical test of C2R’s copper removing qualities. For those of you that require a more scientific take on its copper cleaning qualities then I refer you to the tests undertaken by ovenpaa at the shooting shed, link here: http://shootingshed.co.uk/wp/2013/01/re ... mparative/

So in summation I am impressed with this product, the use of water patches may seem a bit awkward at first glance but in practice it is of no consequence, as well as being a single product bore cleaner it also seems to work on corrosive ammunition fouling if used as directed. A bottle to the range with some wet patches and a pull through will give piece of mind ‘till you can get home and give the rifle a decent clean. I am currently looking at how C2R might fair at tackling black powder fouling and its miscibility with water also means it could have applications as jabberwocky juice for ‘tween shot wiping.

Up until now Pukka Bundhooks has never sold gun cleaning products as I will not sell something I won’t use myself and when people have asked me for bore cleaners I have given them the Ed’s Red recipe and my ammonia regime. However after trying C2R I will be advocating and purveying it to my clients, as I am happy to use it.

I hope you will all note that in doing so I am giving up my hard earned and much treasured curmudgeon and misanthrope status, such is the regard that I hold C2R in.

[John25]

Adam,

Thanks for that, I have also 'stuck' to wipe out/accellerator since moving from Hoppe's for my nitro guns.

Your tests and conclusions have, however, given me cause for though for when I run out of the current batch.

My experiments with the General's formula have, thus far been a failure :lol:

[dromia]

Adam,
My experiments with the General's formula have, thus far been a failure :lol:

Remember it needs to be stirred widdershins whilst reciting the incantations.

[John25]

That explains it.

[Blackstuff]

Good write up Adam

The Shooting Shed were kind enough to send me so C2R to test out, which i will be doing in my shotguns (once i get a chance to get them dirty that is :roll: ). I suspect my write up will be slightly* less detailed and rely on pictures to do the talking for us special kids :lol:



*a lot

[phaedra1106]

Thanks for the write up Adam

I'm fairly sure your "curmudgeon and misanthrope" status is safe (at least for now!)

I must be the only person who's tried patch-out and been singularly unimpressed with the results so I'm keen to see how C2R compares to my current favourites, Montana X-treme bore solvent and bore conditioner (which I've only managed to get on trips to the US).

Went through all my toys last night in preparation for (hopefully) getting to the range on Sunday and was pleasantly surprised by the complete lack of anything coming out of them after standing over the last 3 months.

[dromia]

Thanks for the write up Adam

I'm fairly sure your "curmudgeon and misanthrope" status is safe (at least for now!)

Thanks Jeff, that is a relief.

Tell you what, if you have a spare hour sometime why not bring one of your cleaned guns round and we will give it a clean with C2R and see if it gets anything out.

[EagerNoSkill]

Tell you what, if you have a spare hour sometime why not bring one of your cleaned guns round and we will give it a clean with C2R and see if it gets anything out.

Yes Jeff move it over there
holds breathe "wait for it" :roll:

[phaedra1106]

I shall check my social diary and see if I can squeeze in a visit :lol:

My days are currently filled with doctors and hospital appointments and trying to get Social Services to actually do something to help!

[dromia]

That makes rifle cleaning sound like a thing of joy and a pleasure to look forward too.