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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:31 pm 
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Daryll wrote:
MistAgain wrote:
TRG-22 wrote:


[*]Want more farce? AIUI (and I might be wrong) if a S1 LBR has a handed extension rod, a S5 gunsmith is allowed to remove it and replace it with one of the other hand. At the point of removal, doesn't the gun become a S5 prohibited one?[/list]


When Roger Francis changed the coat hanger on my Taurus he first took a timed and dated picture of the Taurus with its original coat hanger .

He then took another picture , timed and dated showwing the Taurus with the original coat hanger and the replacement rod attached .

He then took a final picture , timed and dated showing the Taurus with just the replacement rod .

As far as I know , thats how decent gunsmiths do things .



So do you do the same when you take your 13'' barrelled 10/22 out of its stock to clean it..?

That would be exactly the same... you're taking a legal length firearm and making it shorter than the legal length, even though its temporary..


I certainly dont when taking the 16 1/2 barrel action out of its stock .

If you are right that means we both could be facing a painful slap on the wrist .

Hopefully somone like Sim will drop in and guide us back onto a straight and narrow path .


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:44 pm 
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the running man wrote:
My god, has not this been done to death, two camps here, those who believe uk law extends to foreign shores, and those that believe uk law applies in the uk.

The argument for a "completed product, boxed" is then the finality of a products class i.e. Sec 1 or 2 is farcical.

Ruger could for example assemble a long pistol, but leave out the trigger group or even 1x screw (so as not complete) pass it along to a subby who welds a bar onto it (dunno why they couldn't do that themselves) passes it back to ruger they complete the assembly and ship it out to the uk as a fully s1, all because they withheld 1 screw b4 assembly,just to appease some uk cert holders who believe uk gun laws apply outside tge uk.


Firearms Amendment Act 1988. S7 Conversion not to affect classification.

(1)Any weapon which—
(a weapon as described by either s57 or s5, a prohibited weapon. Not a component, but the weapon itself. So in everyday parlance, complete, as intended, as manufactured)

has at any time
(Since time began, till time ends. From Croydon to Croatia, Minnesota to Mars)

whether before or after the passing of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997
(Retrospective. Very little legislation considers what went before it, but ensures compliance and negates a defence of acquiring before the act)

been a weapon of a kind described in section 5(1) or (1A) of the principal Act (including any amendments to section 5(1) made under section 1(4) of this Act);
(rocket launcher, semi full bore rifle, smg, taser, short firearm. Anything listed

shall be treated as a prohibited weapon notwithstanding anything done for the purpose of converting it into a weapon of a different kind.
"not withstanding anything done." You cannot add a blob of weld, rechamber, reborn, add a barrel, add an extension rod, use a caliber conversion kit. Nothing, zilch, nada, to make that s5 to s1

That is simply the law. You've claimed letters, emails, licensing dept advice and even court cases. You have either been fed a line or you're making one yourself. None of those at all have changed the law! It is evident there are no court cases as the legislation remains as such!

You really don't get it do you? You've come up with a strap line that implies there is an attempt to project s5 to s foreign country, that is not what has been said at all. But, what you are ignorant of is that events and or happenings very well do feature in British domestic law, where ever in the world they occurred and they are enforceable as such. This is one of these instances.

It has been illustrated to you so many times. Im really not so sure whether you either don't understand it or more than likely you don't want to understand it. Almost "ignorance is bliss" scenario, that is what is farcical as acquiring a prohibited weapon is an offence of strict liability and carries harsh penalties.

If only it was as simple as a barrel change and a rod. But it's not. And the reason why it's not, is pretty simple. And my opinion is exactly the same as the Home Office, CPS, the Law Commission and even the NRAs legal rep and dozens of notable and experienced gunsmiths throughout the country.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:48 pm 
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Daryll wrote:
That would be exactly the same... you're taking a legal length firearm and making it shorter than the legal length, even though its temporary..



No you're not. It was affirmed a decade ago or so, that a disassembled firearm is exactly that, disassembled component parts. OAL is in regard to firearms, so when assembled, not component parts.

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In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:02 pm 
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Posts: 1870
Sim G wrote:
the running man wrote:
My god, has not this been done to death, two camps here, those who believe uk law extends to foreign shores, and those that believe uk law applies in the uk.

The argument for a "completed product, boxed" is then the finality of a products class i.e. Sec 1 or 2 is farcical.

Ruger could for example assemble a long pistol, but leave out the trigger group or even 1x screw (so as not complete) pass it along to a subby who welds a bar onto it (dunno why they couldn't do that themselves) passes it back to ruger they complete the assembly and ship it out to the uk as a fully s1, all because they withheld 1 screw b4 assembly,just to appease some uk cert holders who believe uk gun laws apply outside tge uk.


Firearms Amendment Act 1988. S7 Conversion not to affect classification.

(1)Any weapon which—
(a weapon as described by either s57 or s5, a prohibited weapon. Not a component, but the weapon itself. So in everyday parlance, complete, as intended, as manufactured)

has at any time
(Since time began, till time ends. From Croydon to Croatia, Minnesota to Mars)

whether before or after the passing of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997
(Retrospective. Very little legislation considers what went before it, but ensures compliance and negates a defence of acquiring before the act)

been a weapon of a kind described in section 5(1) or (1A) of the principal Act (including any amendments to section 5(1) made under section 1(4) of this Act);
(rocket launcher, semi full bore rifle, smg, taser, short firearm. Anything listed

shall be treated as a prohibited weapon notwithstanding anything done for the purpose of converting it into a weapon of a different kind.
"not withstanding anything done." You cannot add a blob of weld, rechamber, reborn, add a barrel, add an extension rod, use a caliber conversion kit. Nothing, zilch, nada, to make that s5 to s1

That is simply the law. You've claimed letters, emails, licensing dept advice and even court cases. You have either been fed a line or you're making one yourself. None of those at all have changed the law! It is evident there are no court cases as the legislation remains as such!

You really don't get it do you? You've come up with a strap line that implies there is an attempt to project s5 to s foreign country, that is not what has been said at all. But, what you are ignorant of is that events and or happenings very well do feature in British domestic law, where ever in the world they occurred and they are enforceable as such. This is one of these instances.

It has been illustrated to you so many times. Im really not so sure whether you either don't understand it or more than likely you don't want to understand it. Almost "ignorance is bliss" scenario, that is what is farcical as acquiring a prohibited weapon is an offence of strict liability and carries harsh penalties.

If only it was as simple as a barrel change and a rod. But it's not. And the reason why it's not, is pretty simple. And my opinion is exactly the same as the Home Office, CPS, the Law Commission and even the NRAs legal rep and dozens of notable and experienced gunsmiths throughout the country.

No mate you dont get ot, there are plenty about, why has there not been the great reckoning yet? Why are they allowed at bisley? Ive seen the letter from firearms customs, they cleared it, same with the proof house, i dont own one myself, but i would not subscribe to your very (seemingly) opinionated veiw, qoute the law all you want, until challenged in court and ruled upon then your interpretation is wrong, as they have been approved and whatsmore have enough evidence to be argued as such in court. At the worst if they find in your favour as you seem to hate other lbr lbp shootera so much i an see them sayon no more imports and making those already here ok. Leta hope for the good of our community and for the good of our sport they rule against you, until that day sir i say, let's take it up after the virdict.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:04 pm 
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Sim G wrote:
If only it was as simple as a barrel change and a rod. But it's not. And the reason why it's not, is pretty simple. And my opinion is exactly the same as the Home Office, CPS, the Law Commission and even the NRAs legal rep and dozens of notable and experienced gunsmiths throughout the country.


But... But... This guy on the internet said...

Sim G. I suspect they will never understand!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:14 pm 
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Sim G wrote:
If only it was as simple as a barrel change and a rod. But it's not. And the reason why it's not, is pretty simple.

So why isn't it as simple as those things?

And what is the reason why not?

And for the avoidance of any doubt, that's not a challenge - I do genuinely want to know.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:25 pm 
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Posts: 557
the running man wrote:
Sim G wrote:
the running man wrote:
My god, has not this been done to death, two camps here, those who believe uk law extends to foreign shores, and those that believe uk law applies in the uk.

The argument for a "completed product, boxed" is then the finality of a products class i.e. Sec 1 or 2 is farcical.

Ruger could for example assemble a long pistol, but leave out the trigger group or even 1x screw (so as not complete) pass it along to a subby who welds a bar onto it (dunno why they couldn't do that themselves) passes it back to ruger they complete the assembly and ship it out to the uk as a fully s1, all because they withheld 1 screw b4 assembly,just to appease some uk cert holders who believe uk gun laws apply outside tge uk.


Firearms Amendment Act 1988. S7 Conversion not to affect classification.

(1)Any weapon which—
(a weapon as described by either s57 or s5, a prohibited weapon. Not a component, but the weapon itself. So in everyday parlance, complete, as intended, as manufactured)

has at any time
(Since time began, till time ends. From Croydon to Croatia, Minnesota to Mars)

whether before or after the passing of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997
(Retrospective. Very little legislation considers what went before it, but ensures compliance and negates a defence of acquiring before the act)

been a weapon of a kind described in section 5(1) or (1A) of the principal Act (including any amendments to section 5(1) made under section 1(4) of this Act);
(rocket launcher, semi full bore rifle, smg, taser, short firearm. Anything listed

shall be treated as a prohibited weapon notwithstanding anything done for the purpose of converting it into a weapon of a different kind.
"not withstanding anything done." You cannot add a blob of weld, rechamber, reborn, add a barrel, add an extension rod, use a caliber conversion kit. Nothing, zilch, nada, to make that s5 to s1

That is simply the law. You've claimed letters, emails, licensing dept advice and even court cases. You have either been fed a line or you're making one yourself. None of those at all have changed the law! It is evident there are no court cases as the legislation remains as such!

You really don't get it do you? You've come up with a strap line that implies there is an attempt to project s5 to s foreign country, that is not what has been said at all. But, what you are ignorant of is that events and or happenings very well do feature in British domestic law, where ever in the world they occurred and they are enforceable as such. This is one of these instances.

It has been illustrated to you so many times. Im really not so sure whether you either don't understand it or more than likely you don't want to understand it. Almost "ignorance is bliss" scenario, that is what is farcical as acquiring a prohibited weapon is an offence of strict liability and carries harsh penalties.

If only it was as simple as a barrel change and a rod. But it's not. And the reason why it's not, is pretty simple. And my opinion is exactly the same as the Home Office, CPS, the Law Commission and even the NRAs legal rep and dozens of notable and experienced gunsmiths throughout the country.


No mate you dont get ot, there are plenty about, why has there not been the great reckoning yet? Why are they allowed at bisley? Ive seen the letter from firearms customs, they cleared it, same with the proof house, i dont own one myself, but i would not subscribe to your very (seemingly) opinionated veiw, qoute the law all you want, until challenged in court and ruled upon then your interpretation is wrong, as they have been approved and whatsmore have enough evidence to be argued as such in court. At the worst if they find in your favour as you seem to hate other lbr lbp shootera so much i an see them sayon no more imports and making those already here ok. Leta hope for the good of our community and for the good of our sport they rule against you, until that day sir i say, let's take it up after the virdict.


You claim to have seen letters from a police firearms office and from customs .

So I must ask , why does the dealer that the letters were sent to not publish them on his website ?

Why does he not shout from on high that his converted firearms are 100% legal .

I think we should be told .


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:52 pm 
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Oh dear.

TRG-22 wrote:
I'm interested to understand more about this S1, S5 conversion malarkey. And I sincerely hope it doesn't restart old arguments.


Seemingly it has, so sorry to all.

I would like to know this:

TRG-22 wrote:
Sim G wrote:
If only it was as simple as a barrel change and a rod. But it's not. And the reason why it's not, is pretty simple.

So why isn't it as simple as those things?

And what is the reason why not?

And for the avoidance of any doubt, that's not a challenge - I do genuinely want to know.


But not at the cost of more rancour.

:cry:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:17 pm 
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the running man wrote:
No mate you dont get ot, there are plenty about, why has there not been the great reckoning yet? Why are they allowed at bisley? Ive seen the letter from firearms customs, they cleared it, same with the proof house, i dont own one myself, but i would not subscribe to your very (seemingly) opinionated veiw, qoute the law all you want, until challenged in court and ruled upon then your interpretation is wrong, as they have been approved and whatsmore have enough evidence to be argued as such in court. At the worst if they find in your favour as you seem to hate other lbr lbp shootera so much i an see them sayon no more imports and making those already here ok. Leta hope for the good of our community and for the good of our sport they rule against you, until that day sir i say, let's take it up after the virdict.



Firstly, "customs" don't decide on the validity of what is importable to the UK. As for this letter, I've told you before, I do not believe it exists. The fact it allegedly contradicts primary legislation, from a "agency" with no remit to rule on such, just reiterates its non existence.

Denigration for illustrating legislation is ridiculous. The law as written is more than plain and has been ruled on before. Likewise, the position is reaffirmed in the most recent version of the Home Office Guidance on firearms law. My "very opinionated" view in this regard is based on 28 years of a daily working knowledge of law and even though you may have decided it doesn't apply in this case, you are wrong. Very, very wrong. In fact, drop 500 quid with Rudi Fortson Q.C. of 25 Bedford Row, London. WC1R 4HD who is a Visiting Professor of Law, Queen Mary University of London, and probably the leading expert barrister of firearm law in the country, for his opinion. Here and now I'll say, if he supports your position, I'll give you your 500 quid back.

I just sincerely hope no one picks up your torch because they really want you to be right and decide to order from the continent a converted prohibited weapon and then import it on the strength of their LBR variation on their FAC. Potentially that carries a Life sentence under CEMA 1979.

And for the record, I've owned LBRs since they first became available in the late 90s. Had a number of them. Currently running a .22 and a .357. Looking to add a LBP to the cabinet as well. Chucking insults is somewhat puerile...

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In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:19 pm 
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TRG-22 wrote:
I would like to know this:

TRG-22 wrote:
Sim G wrote:
If only it was as simple as a barrel change and a rod. But it's not. And the reason why it's not, is pretty simple.

So why isn't it as simple as those things?

And what is the reason why not?

And for the avoidance of any doubt, that's not a challenge - I do genuinely want to know.


Seriously?! Have you not read any of the above? It's all there, bud...

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In 1978 I was told by my grand dad that the secret to rifle accuracy is, a quality bullet, fired down a quality barrel..... How has that changed?

Guns dont kill people. Dads with pretty Daughters do...!


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