Gallery LBR

[Gh0st]

I know of one case up north of a Smith that went through the process where the legality was questioned. It was ok'ed in the end.

Same with all though it seems dependant on Firearms dept etc etc

[Sim G]

OK’d by a court? That’s the important bit.

Sorry if it seems I’m labouring the point, but I have personal experience of the police as an organisation saying one thing is OK and then a court at a later date saying, “WTF?!!”

Look, the objective here is to give us access to as much kit as possible whilst making sure we stay out of jail. I have too much invested in my pension and I’m far too pretty for prison, based on the word or alleged “signing off” by someone unknown, who doesn’t sit in a court. Sheesh, the dealers who are doing these haven’t even spent 500 quid to have a QC legal opinion drafted. That wouldn’t be binding either, but it would certainly be a start!

As said, I’d love something like an S&W LBR in my cabinet, but I’ll stand by what I’ve been saying. They breach the law and could bring for whomever, a whole world of hurt...

[Thorney]

Its worth remembering in all this that the police have zero powers to determine the legal position of what is or isnt illegal, only the courts (higher level) or parliament can do that. Any 'advice' the police given should pretty much be ignored, its isnt binding on anyone and isnt even persuasive in terms of legal precedent, it is merely comments. The fact they may or may not be following HO guidelines is meaningless. Its also not the police who determines who is or isnt breaking the law, thats the Crown Prosecution Office so even though you may have a CC of your local force send you a letter on a red pillow saying what you are doing is lawful it means not one jot, if the CPS think you are breaking the law then away you go.

Of course when it got to court the fact you had such a letter would be admissible and I would hope a judge would place heavy weight on it, but thats court, after 2 years of legal costs and still only a toss of a coin on the outcome. Of course the caveat to all this is not following police 'guidance' can also get you up the creek, for the same reasons, they hold all the cards I'm afraid. For example there is a thread elsewhere about the use of LBP's as club guns, case law (non binding, its a lower court) has stated that an LBP is a rifle due to its length, there is also no legal definition of an LBP anywhere in any firearms legislation, ergo clubs should be able to use them as club guns. However, HO guidelines (non binding, non law remember) states that LBP's and sect 1 shotguns were never defined as target firearms so clubs should not use them. As a club I think we are fine to use them as club guns, but as I dont see any real need to upset my local police force we dont, we adhere to the HO guidelines (no matter how ultra vires they may be) as frankly I dont want to take the risk so we only use them as club guns if the member has an LBP on their ticket.

Bottom line, assume the worst, follow it, assume the best and rely on it be prepared for the possibility of someone taking the rug away.

[MistAgain]

Ok so the long and Short of it is.

As the Firearms be it Revolver or pistol are acquired direct from the manufacturer e.g. S&W by the Gunsmith they are still yet to enter the public domain or be registered by anyone. They are modified by the gunsmith and then they are sold complete as a NEW LBR / LBP. Therefore never being sold or owned as a sec 5.

And before you all jump on the dubious bandwagon this has been discussed and confirmed with ATF stateside. Also in writing for this particular gunsmith.

I guess the rest is up to you if you buy one. I certainly do not have an issue buying a Europa for example.

Now someone mentioned JR providing second hand frames. This would NOT be ok due to the gun having been in the public domain as a sec 5 Firearm previously. So I would certainly check before buying one of those. You shouldn’t have any issues with a new frame as set out above.

Cue onslaught....

This gets more weird by the minute .
Lets stick with Smith & Wesson for now .

The minute S & W engrave or stamp the serial number on the frame , it is registered . And when it leaves the factory , it destination is would be entered on some sort of system , probably like Viking or Edgars use over here .

As for the ATF involvement , this has no relevance to us , the only reason ATF could be involved is that they and US State Dept is paranoid about 12 inch barrel firearms that have coathangers at the back . A discussion with IHOP would be more interesting .

Finally a question . You state the gunsmith concerned receives the gun direct from Smith & Wesson .

How can this be when Smith & Wesson does not supply direct ?

The gunsmith concerned would have had to order the gun from a Smith & Wesson Distributor .

[Gh0st]

This gets more weird by the minute .
Lets stick with Smith & Wesson for now .

The minute S & W engrave or stamp the serial number on the frame , it is registered . And when it leaves the factory , it destination is would be entered on some sort of system , probably like Viking or Edgars use over here .

As for the ATF involvement , this has no relevance to us , the only reason ATF could be involved is that they and US State Dept is paranoid about 12 inch barrel firearms that have coathangers at the back . A discussion with IHOP would be more interesting .

Finally a question . You state the gunsmith concerned receives the gun direct from Smith & Wesson .

How can this be when Smith & Wesson does not supply direct ?

The gunsmith concerned would have had to order the gun from a Smith & Wesson Distributor .

Sorry who says you can’t buy direct?

[MistAgain]

This gets more weird by the minute .
Lets stick with Smith & Wesson for now .

The minute S & W engrave or stamp the serial number on the frame , it is registered . And when it leaves the factory , it destination is would be entered on some sort of system , probably like Viking or Edgars use over here .

As for the ATF involvement , this has no relevance to us , the only reason ATF could be involved is that they and US State Dept is paranoid about 12 inch barrel firearms that have coathangers at the back . A discussion with IHOP would be more interesting .

Finally a question . You state the gunsmith concerned receives the gun direct from Smith & Wesson .

How can this be when Smith & Wesson does not supply direct ?

The gunsmith concerned would have had to order the gun from a Smith & Wesson Distributor .

Sorry who says you can’t buy direct?

S& W supplies distributors .

Distributors supply S & W approved stockists and FFL holders .

Is it possible that you are being told porkies , or the person who told you is being told porkies .

Of course if it is true , then a few distributors will be contacting S & W to ask what the hell they are playing at .

[Gh0st]

Well obviously you know more about the inside dealings of it so i will bow to your knowledge.....

[MistAgain]

Well obviously you know more about the inside dealings of it so i will bow to your knowledge.....

Its a pleasure to help a fellow shooter , and maybe even help him avoid an expensive mistake .

[Gh0st]

Lol this may come as a surprise. But I will take your opinion under consideration, but I’m happy to trust a friend who has been in the industry and currently supplies firearms for a living .

[Gwyn R]

It would be interesting to hear what Greg and JR have to say on the legality of their products regarding the LBR's? I couldn't get an answer from Darren who supplies the Europa's Stateside.

Whilst no-one can get a frame only from S&W with the exception of possibly Richard (who has indicated he's not going down that route now) to build a new LBR with, the only way to find out for sure one way or the other is for a case to go through the courts. As has been stated, the Merkle up north was OK'd for that individual to keep in his force area and that doesn't mean squat legally. Changing the serial number in the States or Germany doesn't hide the original serial number or description given to the BATF so the original configuration can easily be found out if needed.

If the courts do ever decide on this issue, then there will either be a whole new line of S&W based LBR's available for people to purchase, or a couple of individuals being sued for supplying the items mentioned in this thread.