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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:54 am 
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Yeah, what he said! lol

Seriously though, I know most members grew up on the imperial system and you have learnt it parrot fashion (after all you have to!) but for example, when you look at a set of allen keys, WTF does 9/64ths, 3/32nds, 7/250ths etc etc mean to a human?? As opposed to 1, 2, 3 etc

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:41 am 
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To me it tells me the size of them, I can visualise 9/16" but 123mm means absolutely nothing.

Also decimal costs more, I remember when the decimal coinage came in how excited I was as a young un, cos young uns lack wisdom and think all new things are exciting but have no experience to know that all new things should be treated with a high level of suspicion, however my enthusiasm was greatly diminished when it came in as my ginger, crisps and comics all ended up costing more.

In the late eighties I was making a good living as a kite maker, the main stuctural members were made from ramin dowel which came in 6' and 8' lengths and all my sail templates were made to fit these lengths or fractions there off, when my supplier went metric I was assured that there would be no changes as 1.6m was the same as 6' and 2.4' was the same as 8ft, more metric lies as they arenot the same they are just shy of the imperial lengths so all my template for 100s of kite designs were now redundant, the stalling of production to update the templates was enough to make me close down that business. Such conversions might work for companies like Nissan but for the two person band of my kite business it was the death knell.

Metric gives number blindness and errors whereas Imperial give memorable numbers, I have never got the hang of working accurately in metric and have still to convert metric to Imperial to know what it means, still convert £.p to L.s.d to now what value the price of something is.

Metric was just another EU scam to allow europe to replace our own indigenous industries for almost total dependency of supply on europe which has lead us all down hill to the total mess the world is in now.

Imperial good!

Metric bad!

Brexit good!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:18 am 
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I should, perhaps, have started by explaining that I grew up in the Metric system. I went to a technical grammar school that was determined to be up to date. At 18, I commenced a student apprecticeship in the commercial vehicle industry and found that the real world worked in the imperial system. I also found that the imperial system was very consistent, whereas the metric game had the kilogram as a mass sometimes and sometimes as a force. Pressure was measured in lb/square inch but the metric system had the Pascal--- a Newton per square millimetre. Basically, if you take an apple and spread it over a large manhole cover, the pressure which it will exert will be one Pascal: daft. So nobody uses it---giga pascals are the practical metric unit of measure. You can easily work with a micrometer to one thousands of an inch, but no metric micrometer has an equal fine measurement. And so it goes on.
I am completely bi-lingual---I speak both ISO metric and Imperial and I know which I prefer. People who have only studied and used the metric system are naturally biased in its favour, but they do not know what they are missing.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:37 pm 
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dromia wrote:
Also decimal costs more, I remember when the decimal coinage came in how excited I was as a young un, cos young uns lack wisdom and think all new things are exciting but have no experience to know that all new things should be treated with a high level of suspicion, however my enthusiasm was greatly diminished when it came in as my ginger crisps and comics all ended up costing more.

That was a consequence of two factors:
  1. Making the smallest (sensible) price increment 2.4 x the size it had been before. We had the ridiculous (for a decimal system) of a ½p coin for a bit, but basically we reduced the granularity by a large amount, meaning any price changes were more significant. If we had (like Australia, New Zealand and South Africa did) had a "New Pound" at half the value of the old, divided into 100, this effect would have been much less. And we could have kept the tanner - it would have been a perfectly rational 5p coin, and the half-crown which would have been worth 25p. We might even have called it a quarter.
  2. The natural inclination of businesses to seek, take and exploit ways to increase their profitability.


Quote:
In the late eighties I was making a good living as a kite maker, the main stuctural members were made from ramin dowel which came in 6' and 8' lengths and all my sail templates were made to fit these lengths or fractions there off, when my supplier went metric I was assured that there would be no changes as 1.6m was the same as 6' and 2.4' was the same as 8ft, more metric lies

One has to be careful accusing people of lying when in fact they are just wrong.

Whoever told you that was wrong. 6' is 1828.8mm, nowhere near 1600. 8' is 2438.4mm, closer to 2400, but, of course, not exact.

However, this is a consequence of change, not an intrinsic fault in the metric system.


Quote:
as they arenot the same they are just shy of the imperial lengths so all my template for 100s of kite designs were now redundant, the stalling of production to update the templates was enough to make me close down that business. Such conversions might work for companies like Nissan but for the two person band of my kite business it was the death knell.

A French kite maker would have had exactly the same problem had France changed from using metres to feet and inches. Does that mean that the Imperial system was wrong, or based on lies?

It seems to me that what you object to is change. Change is inevitable, and to be welcomed, or we would all still be living in caves, eating raw meat from animals we had chased on foot and killed with pointed sticks. Organisms and societies which cannot adapt to changes die.


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Metric gives number blindness and errors

Is there evidence for that, and a known mechanism involved?


Quote:
whereas Imperial give memorable numbers, I have never got the hang of working accurately in metric and have still to convert metric to Imperial to know what it means,

Ignoring any particular unit names, what you are describing, generically, is that you can accurately cut something to, say, a length of 8¹/32 somethings, but not to 204 something-elses.


Quote:
still convert £.p to L.s.d to now what value the price of something is.

Since any Lsd prices you remember are forever locked into 1971 values, I wonder what use that is. So petrol is now £5/18/3 per gallon. And...?


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Metric was just another EU scam to allow europe to replace our own indigenous industries for almost total dependency of supply on europe which has lead us all down hill to the total mess the world is in now.

That is one opinion.

The following are facts:

  • Metrication began in Europe 198 years before the formation of the EU.
  • Decimalisation of currency began in Europe 289 years before the formation of the EU.
  • People started seeing the international trade advantages of decimalisation and metrication 152 years before the formation of the EU.
  • Metrication and decimalisation in the UK were first called for by a Parliamentary Select Committees 131 years before the formation of the EU.
  • It became legal to use metric units in contracts and dealings 129 years, and in all trade 96 years, before the formation of the EU.
  • The UK joined the Metre Convention, which created an international (not just European) bureau of weights and measures 110 years before the formation of the EU.
  • 104 years before the formation of the EU it was a British firm that was chosen to cast the international prototype metre and kilogram.
  • We came very close (progress halted by a general election) to making metrication compulsory 89 years before the formation of the EU.
  • It was us who drove the creation of the CGS system of units.
  • We began an official programme of metrication 28 years before the formation of the EU, 5 years before we began negotiations to join the EEC, and 7 years before we joined it.
  • We decided to decimalise our currency 27 years before the formation of the EU, 4 years before we began negotiations to join the EEC, and 6 years before we joined it.
  • Today the metric system officially predominates in most countries, and only 2 still have non-decimal currencies.


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Imperial good!

Metric bad!

IMO "The old ways of doing things and never changing are good, and new inventions and systems and easier ways of doing business with customers around the world are bad" would be a more realistic interpretation of your position.


Quote:
Brexit good!

Just as with your view that something which began nearly 200 years before the formation of the EU was an "EU scam", that is one opinion.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:22 pm 
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FredB wrote:
I also found that the imperial system was very consistent, whereas the metric game had the kilogram as a mass sometimes and sometimes as a force.

No.

You may have been told that by someone who didnt know what they were talking about, but kg is, and has always been a measure of mass, and never a derived unit of force. Ironically it is in the Imperial system where lb is used both as a unit of mass and a unit of force.


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Pressure was measured in lb/square inch but the metric system had the Pascal--- a Newton per square millimetre

No, 1Pa = 1N/m².


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Basically, if you take an apple and spread it over a large manhole cover, the pressure which it will exert will be one Pascal: daft.

And my Christmas tree lights use 0.0009hp bulbs. Your point is?


Quote:
So nobody uses it---giga pascals are the practical metric unit of measure

1GPa = 145,037psi. :o


Quote:
You can easily work with a micrometer to one thousands of an inch, but no metric micrometer has an equal fine measurement.

Another opinion.

Now for some more facts.

  • A metric micrometer has more threads per inch than an Imperial one.
  • With a metric micrometer the spindle moves less per turn than an Imperial one.
  • With a metric micrometer the equivalent of your 0.001" is 0.01mm, or 0.0004". Or, if you prefer, an Imperial micrometer can measure to within 25.4 microns, a metric one to within 10 microns.


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And so it goes on.

I do so hope not.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:25 pm 
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TRG-22 wrote:
I do so hope not.

Seriously, chums, this has drifted so far off-topic that we all ought to stop now.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:03 pm 
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I calibrated a metric digital micrometer for our own use today, the calibration temperature was 17,5C and it was zeroed at 25,000mm (25 to 50mm range) I have just popped the calibration gauge in my pocket to warm it up, this will be interesting. Right now it is now coming up as 25,021mm so it has 'grown' by just under 8/10th of a thou in old money, which does make a bit of a mockery of measurements. This is why I always ask for the tolerances when I am sent a drawing and in the absence of a tolerance I add a premium and record the temperature value at the time of cut.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:35 pm 
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Anyone that thinks all change is good and should be welcomed unquestioned is a fool.

Interpret what I say any way you want to suit your position, however that does not change what I think based on my experience over the decades.

Bringing in the metric system to the UK has not enhanced my life one iota it has only made it more difficult and is one of the many change contributors to me becoming a stranger in my own country.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:49 pm 
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Ovenpaa wrote:
I calibrated a metric digital micrometer for our own use today, the calibration temperature was 17,5C and it was zeroed at 25,000mm (25 to 50mm range) I have just popped the calibration gauge in my pocket to warm it up, this will be interesting. Right now it is now coming up as 25,021mm so it has 'grown' by just under 8/10th of a thou in old money, which does make a bit of a mockery of measurements. This is why I always ask for the tolerances when I am sent a drawing and in the absence of a tolerance I add a premium and record the temperature value at the time of cut.

And in a desperate attempt to drag things back on topic, those tolerances and temperature related changes in dimensions (doubly interesting when the item being measured and the measuring device are of different materials) are way under the "noise floor" of a 24±" shotgun barrel.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:08 pm 
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dromia wrote:
Anyone that thinks all change is good and should be welcomed unquestioned is a fool.

Absolutely.

But questioning should always, always, involve facts and evidence.


Quote:
Interpret what I say any way you want to suit your position, however that does not change what I think based on my experience over the decades.

Indeed not. Nor does what you think change the facts.


Quote:
Bringing in the metric system to the UK has not enhanced my life one iota

It probably has, in so many ways. Imagine if we couldn't export anything because we insisted on making, or measuring, everything in ways that the rest of the world didn't use, if they had no spanners to fit our nuts and bolts, no nuts and bolts to fit holes or threads in our products, no measuring devices to check our exports. Imagine if whenever something we'd imported needed servicing and we had no tools or fixings that fitted it.


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it has only made it more difficult and is one of the many change contributors to me becoming a stranger in my own country.

And recent changes have made me embarrassed and ashamed of it.

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