Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

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spikedueller
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Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#1 Post by spikedueller »

I saw on a different forum that the latest Home Office guide on Firearms Licensing Law has just been published.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... __002_.pdf

I hope I'm wrong but they've appeared to have put all expanding ammunition and bullets back to section 5, see page 29 onwards. Hopefully this is a bad cut and paste mistake or am I reading this wrong?
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daman
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Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#2 Post by daman »

If I'm reading it correctly (I am not a lawyer), then you can still acquire expanding ammo if you have good reason. i.e. for deer or vermin but not for target shooting:

3.39 Section 5A(4) of the 1968 Act (as amended by section 10 of the 1997 Act) states
that authority is not required for shooters to possess etc. expanding ammunition or
expanding bullets prohibited by sections 5(1A)(f) and (g) providing they have
firearm certificates or visitors’ permits authorising their use in connection with four
specific activities. These activities are:
i. the lawful shooting of deer;
ii. shooting of vermin or, in the course of estate management, other wildlife
(for more information see chapter 13);
iii. the humane killing of animals; and
iv. the shooting of animals to protect other animals or people.
3.40 However, the use of the phrase “in connection with” means that it is acceptable for
shooters to use expanding ammunition to zero their rifles with the ammunition they
will be using in the field provided it is for one or more of the four activities listed
above. These exemptions apply only to use in Great Britain, not overseas.
3.41 The possession of expanding ammunition for target shooting or any competition
use is not allowed. Applicants wishing to possess expanding ammunition for any
other purpose (for example, to zero a large calibre rifle for big game hunting
abroad) should also be refused (see also paragraphs 3.22 and 3.23). There should
be no prescribed limits set on the number of rounds of ammunition that can be
expended during zeroing, although this will need to be compatible with these
functions and consistent with the overall limits on possession
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daman
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Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#3 Post by daman »

Actually - reading further - it does sound like you might need a separate ammo condition on FAC beyond just the ALQ condition. Maybe someone with legal qualification could comment:

4.5 Persons who wish to acquire expanding ammunition for any of these purposes?
must first satisfy the chief officer of police that they have a ‘good reason’ to possess
a firearm for any of the above. Once this ‘good reason’ requirement has been
satisfied, the shooter’s firearm certificate or visitor’s permit must be conditioned to
include expanding ammunition and, for home loaders, the bullets for such
ammunition. The condition should restrict the use of the bullets or ammunition to
the precise purpose for which it is intended (see Chapter 3 and 4.7). These
exemptions apply only to use in England, Wales and Scotland, as Northern Ireland
has their own legislation.
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The Event
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Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#4 Post by The Event »

I would say it's a bad cut & paste job.
Because according to Appendix 5 of that new guidance .44 Russian, .41 Colt etc. are back on the obsolete calibre list again.
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Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#5 Post by RDC »

I reckon they've used an old issue of the doc when updating it.

I wish they would also use change markers!
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Blackstuff
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Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#6 Post by Blackstuff »

Such a change would require primary legislation to be altered, i.e. to undo the Policing and Crime Act 2017 which brought expanding ammo (other than specific handgun expanding ammo) from S5 to S1. Looks like an office junior needs their wrist slapped.

This does however need reporting to SOME authority so the document can be pulled before some over zealous FEO starts slapping the cuffs on people 8-)

EDIT: Wait wait, if you look at the now amended 1968 act 51A (f) is specifically for PISTOL ammunition, panic over....

(f)any ammunition which is designed to be used with a pistol and incorporates a missile designed or adapted to expand on impact

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... ms-traffic
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Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#7 Post by spikedueller »

Thank you Blackstuff, I was struggling to find this yesterday and indeed as you say the change would have required primary legislation to be changed. I was worried that this might have been slipped onto another bill on the quiet.

We do now have a situation where there's a difference in the guidance document and the law and this could lead to some confusion. Hopefully someone with a concept of versioning and change control will step up and issue a correct version.
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Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#8 Post by strangesam »

spikedueller wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:01 am EDIT: Wait wait, if you look at the now amended 1968 act 51A (f) is specifically for PISTOL ammunition, panic over....

(f)any ammunition which is designed to be used with a pistol and incorporates a missile designed or adapted to expand on impact
How does this work with things like .22lr and .38 special?

I have seen people shooting their marlins and similar with HP ammunition? And I have a few rounds of .22lr still in the safe that was cheap (and HP).
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Blackstuff
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Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#9 Post by Blackstuff »

strangesam wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:13 am
spikedueller wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:01 am EDIT: Wait wait, if you look at the now amended 1968 act 51A (f) is specifically for PISTOL ammunition, panic over....

(f)any ammunition which is designed to be used with a pistol and incorporates a missile designed or adapted to expand on impact
How does this work with things like .22lr and .38 special?

I have seen people shooting their marlins and similar with HP ammunition? And I have a few rounds of .22lr still in the safe that was cheap (and HP).
When it was being drafted the idea was to just allow expanding rifle ammunition back to S1 to make things easier for deer stalkers/pest controllers etc as there aren't many people who have what would be commonly considered pistol calibred guns using them for pest control (although yes I know there are exceptions - I know someone who has .38/.357 for fox). In order to do that though they had to differentiate between 'rifle' and 'pistol' calibres, which sounds easy and obvious when you first think about it, but once you have to write something that is workable for legislation and takes into account the history/technicalities of cartridges/how they are used it becomes far more difficult.

In the end they realised the amount of effort it would take didn't justify the 'benefits' it would bring so instead they published a small list of cartridges that have ONLY ever been used in pistols, that way they could claim they hadn't wasted their time and were still "firmly in control" of expanding 'pistol' ammo. IIRC there are 7 or 9 super obscure entries, so the upside is we don't have to bother with this silliness anymore :good:
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Re: Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law Nov 2021

#10 Post by IainWR »

Thanks for this.
Yet again the HO haven't bothered to give the NGBs notice of this.
I will call the relevant authority in the morning.
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