Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

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All handloading data posted on Full-Bore UK from 23/2/2021 must reference the published pressure tested data it was sourced from, posts without such verification will be removed.
Any existing data without such a reference should be treated as suspect and not used.

Use reloading information posted here at your own risk. This forum (http://www.full-bore.co.uk) is not responsible for any property damage or personal injury as a consequence of using reloading data posted here, the information is individual members findings and observations only. Always verify the load data and be absolutely sure your firearm can handle the load, especially older ones. If in doubt start low and work your way up.
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Laurie
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Re: Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

#31 Post by Laurie »

Alpha1 wrote:Why small primers whats the benefit.
The small primer case using the basic 7.9 Mauser / 30-06 / 308 etc case-head design (and equally important, the smaller diameter flash-hole at 1.5mm v the standard 2mm) was originally designed for the 6mm BR Remington, the basis of one of the most effective precision designs introduced since WW2, and still the precision benchmark for many in its modern Norma form.

The primer / f-h form was subsequently adopted for the smaller 7.62X39mm case-head by Sako then Lapua for the 220 Russian match case, the basis of the PPCs (more recently Alexander Arms / Lapua's Grendel), and still regarded as the best precision design for short-range shooting.

Lapua made and tested both LR / 2mm f-h and SR / 1.5mm f-hole case-head forms of its prototype 6.5X47mm Lapua design, another outstanding precision design, and the same thing has happened more recently with its version of the Creedmoor case.

Around 12 years ago, the US Palma Rifle teams joint management approached Lapua (whose cases it had switched to from domestic Winchester) to make up 1,000 SR / 1.5mm f-h 308 Win cases for evaluation. The objective was to reduce MV extreme spread / SD values with the standard loads using H. VarGet or H4895 powders and 155gn Sierra MK bullets. This objective was achieved with an average ES/SD reduction of around 30% at the cost of needing a higher charge to achieve the average MVs used in the LRP 308 Lapua based Palma ammunition. Lapua undertook its own evaluations, obtained similar results, and put the case into production under the 'Palma' name, a rarely given permission from its US Palma Team owners.

More recently new entrants into the case manufacturing arena, notably Peterson have offered SR / small f-h versions of other cases - 243 Win, 260 Rem and a few others alongside the standard LR / 2mm variants.

You note a pattern here? All related to precision cartridges and/or improving precision and internal ballistic consistency.

Because it has smaller holes in the key case-head / web area, SR cases are considerably stronger than equivalent conventional cases and are much less liable to case-head expansion which which in turn expands the primer pocket ending the case's life when it produces a slack primer fit and poor seal. To give an example, LR 308 Win Lapua cases in early F/TR loads generally lasted around five firings before scrapping for expanded primer pockets. With otherwise identical SR brass, the case-head stands up to double-figure reloadings, often over 20, despite the use of loads giving higher MVs. Neck / shoulder annealing has become the norm, as brass hardening in this area has replaced primer pockets as the key case life determinant.

What's not to like? There are a few things:

1) Higher charges needed to obtain the same pressures / MVs
2) Weaker ignition and unreliability in very low temperatures and/or with some hard to ignite powders. (Hodgdon CFE223 gave me hang and misfires in 308 Win Palma brass.) 308 Win sized cases and its charges are at the upper limit of reliable ignition with this primer type and flash-hole.
3) Fat firing pin tips and/or those with a loose fit in the bolt-face aperture cause cratering and blanking with SR primers when they don't with LR models at the same pressures. The bolt may need to be bushed and the pin turned down in some bolt designs (or in AI rifles, a special bolt and striker obtained if a 6.5X47L barrel is fitted as these bolts mustn't be bushed.)
4) The additional case-head strength can be abused by handloaders. (The 6.5X47 in particular is regularly over-loaded to obtain large cartridge performance from this small capacity design.) Even if nothing breaks / fails disastrously, wear and tear is increased and stainless barrels are often worn out at low round counts.
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Alpha1
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Re: Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

#32 Post by Alpha1 »

Thanks Laurie interesting.
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Re: Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

#33 Post by phaedra1106 »

Small correction to my earlier post.

I said "I've tested loads of N140 with 140gr Nosler CC bullets", it should of course have said N150.

I do use N140 in the 6.5C but only with the 100gr Scenar bullets.
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Re: Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

#34 Post by Alpha1 »

I made a start tonight I loaded 20 rounds to get a feel for it. I don't like the way N150 meters through an RCBS powder measure I had problems with bridging it dumped a load of powder on my desk.
Need to sort that out. I may have a look at some Ramshot powders anybody used them in the Creedmoor.
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Re: Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

#35 Post by mag41uk »

Don't discount 123gn scenars either.
I was shooting my 260 @ a 1000 on Tuesday in a very high cross wind.
I had 3.5mil windage on and off all morning.
I was using 123 scenars, 123 hornady and 144 lapuas.
No real difference between any of them.
And they will all make it to 1200 as well.
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Re: Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

#36 Post by dodgyrog »

I have had misfires ( a lot of them) with H4895 in the Creedmore using SP brass and have gone over to using N150 Viht powder
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Re: Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

#37 Post by dodgyrog »

Alpha1 wrote:I made a start tonight I loaded 20 rounds to get a feel for it. I don't like the way N150 meters through an RCBS powder measure I had problems with bridging it dumped a load of powder on my desk.
Need to sort that out. I may have a look at some Ramshot powders anybody used them in the Creedmoor.
Get yourself a Target Master powder dribbler. I have given up using the Lyman DPS.
The Hornady powder dispenser seems good too.
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WelshShooter
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Re: Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

#38 Post by WelshShooter »

Alpha1 wrote:I made a start tonight I loaded 20 rounds to get a feel for it. I don't like the way N150 meters through an RCBS powder measure I had problems with bridging it dumped a load of powder on my desk.
Need to sort that out. I may have a look at some Ramshot powders anybody used them in the Creedmoor.
I tried Ramshot Big Game in my 6.5x47 Lapua with 123gr bullets. This powder meters very well in the RCBS Uniflow device. I only use extruded stick powders in digital dispensers like the Lyman Gen6 or RCBS Chargemaster for the same reason you describe RE: bridging.

Big Game worked alright in the Lapua, but I did find that stick powders (RS60 and N150) produced more consistent results down range. I'd expect a similar scenario for the Creedmoor.

So it depends what you want, as easy way of charging the cases (ie ball powder) or more consistent results at the range by using a different powder measuring and dispensing system. I'd recommend looking at such systems and figure out if that's what you'd like to spend your shekels on, or experiment with some ball powders.
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Re: Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

#39 Post by Laurie »

dodgyrog wrote:I have had misfires ( a lot of them) with H4895 in the Creedmore using SP brass
That shouldn't happen. National and international F/TR shooters on both sides of the Atlantic have used Lapua small primer 'Palma' 308 Win cases since their introduction 10 years ago and H4895 was long a very popular powder choice for 155-175gn bullets. With 308 Win and Creedmoor being similar case shapes, but 308 a tad bigger with another 4-6gn of charge to ignite, what works in this cartridge should work as well as or even better in the smaller Creedmoor.

What primer were you using? SR primed cartridges (of all sizes) are much more primer make / model (even production lot) sensitive than conventional LR / 2mm f-h cased cartridges. Also, there have been loud unhappy noises for a while in recent times over CCI-450s (and less commonly BR4s) misfiring without a cause being identified, but maybe production related. ....... or then again maybe not as these primers must be seated 100% fully in the pocket onto its floor and then a fraction more to push the anvil back into contact with the explosive pellet. A sensitive hand priming tool is needed and some models don't seem to have enough reach for Lapua SR brass which have very deep pockets.
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Re: Lapua 139grain Scenars any good in the 6.5 creedmoor

#40 Post by dodgyrog »

Laurie wrote:
dodgyrog wrote:I have had misfires ( a lot of them) with H4895 in the Creedmore using SP brass
That shouldn't happen. National and international F/TR shooters on both sides of the Atlantic have used Lapua small primer 'Palma' 308 Win cases since their introduction 10 years ago and H4895 was long a very popular powder choice for 155-175gn bullets. With 308 Win and Creedmoor being similar case shapes, but 308 a tad bigger with another 4-6gn of charge to ignite, what works in this cartridge should work as well as or even better in the smaller Creedmoor.

What primer were you using? SR primed cartridges (of all sizes) are much more primer make / model (even production lot) sensitive than conventional LR / 2mm f-h cased cartridges. Also, there have been loud unhappy noises for a while in recent times over CCI-450s (and less commonly BR4s) misfiring without a cause being identified, but maybe production related. ....... or then again maybe not as these primers must be seated 100% fully in the pocket onto its floor and then a fraction more to push the anvil back into contact with the explosive pellet. A sensitive hand priming tool is needed and some models don't seem to have enough reach for Lapua SR brass which have very deep pockets.
It happened with CCI SRP and also Murom SRP magnum. 34gr of powder behind a Nosler 140gr bullet
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